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I have managed to narrow my options down to two choices- Michigan and Wayne State- but I am unsure which one would be the best based on my career goals. Let me start off by saying I do NOT want biglaw. I’ve done enough research and spoken with some attorneys in the field (some who have loved it and some who have hated it), and I know it is not for me. Ideally, I would like to be an ADA. I have lived in the metro-Detroit area my entire life, and Wayne is very well-respected in this area. That being said, however, I’m not quite sure I want to spend the rest of my life here. The national reach of Michigan is thus very appealing, but after reading all about how important ties are on TLS I have to wonder if Michigan would really be able to help me overcome that and land an ADA position in an area where I have no ties. Based on the schools' COA estimates I have calculated my COA at each school over 3 years:

COA at Michigan: $125,850

COA at Wayne: $26,928 (This takes into account the fact that I would live at home and thus not have a monthly rent payment. Their website allocates almost $4,000/year for transportation costs which seems a bit high to me- I only live about 20 minutes away- so I expect this number to actually be lower).

Is the $100,000 extra debt at Michigan really going to give me better job prospects as an ADA (both nationally and in my area)? I have no undergraduate debt if that makes a difference.

I can't even fathom this question. Michigan is easily worth the extra money.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers

To start, I'll admit I'm biased toward Michigan since I go there, but maybe less so than some of the other prestige heads on this site.

I assume you want to be an ADA in Michigan? That's tough. Being from metro Detroit you have an extremely good chance coming from U of M but 120k is not a trivial amount of money. The good thing is that the LRAP should make paying it off pretty manageable. I would look into that if I were you.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Michigan will open up more doors for clerkships. You want to be an ADA but doing what? A clerkship and Michigan degree might get you into felony or appellate cases quicker. Not that a Wayne State graduate would be stuck in misdemeanors forever, but every bit helps.

Finally, you might be surprised what you end up liking in law school. I have a friend who was super gung-ho about helping the poors but ended up liking his corp classes and is doing a SA at a biglaw firm. I thought I would like corporate / transactional but I think the firm I'll be gunning hard this summer to get in a pretty niche regulatory group.

The only way this would be a debate is if you were comparing Wayne to Michigan State.

michigan and it is not even close.

ADA jobs can be competitive and many offices will not even hire until after you pass the bar and have trial experience. at this point, it is also hard to exactly gauge what you truly want to do until after you have taken some classes and/or had some work experience. michigan will give you a lot more options.

sarah109 wrote:I have managed to narrow my options down to two choices- Michigan and Wayne State- but I am unsure which one would be the best based on my career goals. Let me start off by saying I do NOT want biglaw. I’ve done enough research and spoken with some attorneys in the field (some who have loved it and some who have hated it), and I know it is not for me. Ideally, I would like to be an ADA. I have lived in the metro-Detroit area my entire life, and Wayne is very well-respected in this area. That being said, however, I’m not quite sure I want to spend the rest of my life here. The national reach of Michigan is thus very appealing, but after reading all about how important ties are on TLS I have to wonder if Michigan would really be able to help me overcome that and land an ADA position in an area where I have no ties. Based on the schools' COA estimates I have calculated my COA at each school over 3 years:

COA at Michigan: $125,850

COA at Wayne: $26,928 (This takes into account the fact that I would live at home and thus not have a monthly rent payment. Their website allocates almost $4,000/year for transportation costs which seems a bit high to me- I only live about 20 minutes away- so I expect this number to actually be lower).

Is the $100,000 extra debt at Michigan really going to give me better job prospects as an ADA (both nationally and in my area)? I have no undergraduate debt if that makes a difference.

Bro, are Wayne and Michigan really that far apart distance wise? My impression was that if you could commute to one you could commute to the other but I don't know Michigan that well.

thand42292 wrote:

sarah109 wrote:I have managed to narrow my options down to two choices- Michigan and Wayne State- but I am unsure which one would be the best based on my career goals. Let me start off by saying I do NOT want biglaw. I’ve done enough research and spoken with some attorneys in the field (some who have loved it and some who have hated it), and I know it is not for me. Ideally, I would like to be an ADA. I have lived in the metro-Detroit area my entire life, and Wayne is very well-respected in this area. That being said, however, I’m not quite sure I want to spend the rest of my life here. The national reach of Michigan is thus very appealing, but after reading all about how important ties are on TLS I have to wonder if Michigan would really be able to help me overcome that and land an ADA position in an area where I have no ties. Based on the schools' COA estimates I have calculated my COA at each school over 3 years:

COA at Michigan: $125,850

COA at Wayne: $26,928 (This takes into account the fact that I would live at home and thus not have a monthly rent payment. Their website allocates almost $4,000/year for transportation costs which seems a bit high to me- I only live about 20 minutes away- so I expect this number to actually be lower).

Is the $100,000 extra debt at Michigan really going to give me better job prospects as an ADA (both nationally and in my area)? I have no undergraduate debt if that makes a difference.

Bro, are Wayne and Michigan really that far apart distance wise? My impression was that if you could commute to one you could commute to the other but I don't know Michigan that well.

Yeah, they're like 45 minutes away from each other. If the OP lives 20 minutes away from Wayne I'd assume that they live somewhere on the eastside already, and it'd probably take over an hour to get to Ann Arbor with traffic. I'd still choose Michigan in this case though.

Maybe this would be a discussion if you were talking NYU with 275K debt coming your way and not a whole lot of interest in big law. But, this is Michigan for an incredibly reasonable price. In the grand scheme of things, 100K is not terrible and certainly not enough to limit your career prospects in the long-run by taking Wayne here.

sarah109 wrote:I have managed to narrow my options down to two choices- Michigan and Wayne State- but I am unsure which one would be the best based on my career goals. Let me start off by saying I do NOT want biglaw. I’ve done enough research and spoken with some attorneys in the field (some who have loved it and some who have hated it), and I know it is not for me. Ideally, I would like to be an ADA. I have lived in the metro-Detroit area my entire life, and Wayne is very well-respected in this area. That being said, however, I’m not quite sure I want to spend the rest of my life here. The national reach of Michigan is thus very appealing, but after reading all about how important ties are on TLS I have to wonder if Michigan would really be able to help me overcome that and land an ADA position in an area where I have no ties. Based on the schools' COA estimates I have calculated my COA at each school over 3 years:

COA at Michigan: $125,850

COA at Wayne: $26,928 (This takes into account the fact that I would live at home and thus not have a monthly rent payment. Their website allocates almost $4,000/year for transportation costs which seems a bit high to me- I only live about 20 minutes away- so I expect this number to actually be lower).

Is the $100,000 extra debt at Michigan really going to give me better job prospects as an ADA (both nationally and in my area)? I have no undergraduate debt if that makes a difference.

Hmm... Michigan and don't look back. You would be foolish to go to Wayne at this point. Stop ruining your future and pay that deposit and move on.

If you pick Wayne in this situation you deserve whatever bad consequences come your way.

The LST reports really tell you all you need to know. Do you want a 1 in 10 risk of being unemployed or severely underemployed after graduation.... Or 1 in 3?

well i live in michigan and have applied to the top 3 schools here (msu, michigan, and WSU)

all i have to day is GO TO MICHIGAN

have same offers at wayne as urself (and MSU) and i am more than willingly to pay sticker (if(but probably not)) i get into michigan. and i have no intentions of ever leaving this state

i must admit my family is very wealthy so i wouldnt have to take a loan. but i dont know why people stress a loan. if u have a good job with income coming in, then i loan is just another payment. of course going to michigan would guarantee this job. WSU, well, who knows.

overperformer wrote:well i live in michigan and have applied to the top 3 schools here (msu, michigan, and WSU)

all i have to day is GO TO MICHIGAN

have same offers at wayne as urself (and MSU) and i am more than willingly to pay sticker (if(but probably not)) i get into michigan. and i have no intentions of ever leaving this state

i must admit my family is very wealthy so i wouldnt have to take a loan. but i dont know why people stress a loan. if u have a good job with income coming in, then i loan is just another payment. of course going to michigan would guarantee this job. WSU, well, who knows.

You serious bro? You'd be more than willing to pay sticker, but you're family's wealthy so you wouldn't be taking loans. And you don't understand why people "stress a loan" because it's "just another payment." Michigan with that scholly is an attractive offer, but for the record, you're an idiot.

TheZoid wrote:

overperformer wrote:well i live in michigan and have applied to the top 3 schools here (msu, michigan, and WSU)

all i have to day is GO TO MICHIGAN

have same offers at wayne as urself (and MSU) and i am more than willingly to pay sticker (if(but probably not)) i get into michigan. and i have no intentions of ever leaving this state

i must admit my family is very wealthy so i wouldnt have to take a loan. but i dont know why people stress a loan. if u have a good job with income coming in, then i loan is just another payment. of course going to michigan would guarantee this job. WSU, well, who knows.

You serious bro? You'd be more than willing to pay sticker, but you're family's wealthy so you wouldn't be taking loans. And you don't understand why people "stress a loan" because it's "just another payment." Michigan with that scholly is an attractive offer, but for the record, you're an idiot.

clearly u ignored where i said "if u have a good job with income coming in, then i loan is just another payment"

if u dont have income then u stress..

read carefully brooo. purpose is to help the poster not take shots at me

overperformer wrote:if u have a good job with income coming in... of course going to michigan would guarantee this job.

~50% of Michigan grads are getting that 'good job' that will pay off sticker debt. The rest are not. Very far from guaranteed, and UMich is not a school I would go to at sticker. (this IMPLIES debt, if I'm not paying anything then what do I care?)

Wayne sent me an admissions packet with a grease stain on it. A grease stain. It made me completely forget about full ride they offered me and now it's not even an option for me.

To add something helpful to this conversation: I commuted from a city right next to Detroit to Ann Arbor for 2 semesters while working part time and finishing my degree. It sucked, but was doable. And, from just a social/environment standpoint, Ann Arbor >>>>> Detroit. From an academic standpoint, I'm sure you know the winner. Michigan will give you way more opportunies both in and out of state- you said you may want to move out of state, and how many people outside of the Detroit area have even heard of Wayne? If I were you, Michigan would be the clear choice- no question.

Have you thought about going to UM and commuting from Detroit to save some cash? I know some kids who do the opposite (live in Ann Arbor and attend Wayne State) and they say it's pretty manageable.

Thanks you all for the replies! I wasn't expecting such an overwhelming response in one direction...I guess I was just a bit nervous about taking on all that debt. I realize that it will be for the best in the long run though. In response to the idea of commuting to Ann Arbor, I live about an hour away (and that's not in rush hour traffic) so I'd prefer to actually live there. 1L year seems stressful enough and I don't want to add to it with the constant commute. Plus I've heard great things about the students at Michigan and commuting wouldn't give me a good opportunity to really get to know others in my class as well. I've checked into Michigan's LRAP and it seems pretty good so that makes me feel a lot better.

empyreanrrv wrote:

overperformer wrote:if u have a good job with income coming in... of course going to michigan would guarantee this job.

~50% of Michigan grads are getting that 'good job' that will pay off sticker debt. The rest are not. Very far from guaranteed, and UMich is not a school I would go to at sticker. (this IMPLIES debt, if I'm not paying anything then what do I care?)

what are u talking about. 95% of michigan grads are employed with an median income of nearly 140K

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... &show=sals

compare that to 83% and 65K at WSU

in two years of practicing, on average, the 100K investment difference is negated.

nothings guanteed, but if ur in the bottom 5% that didn;t make it, then u probably wouldnt make it regardless of what law skool u attend and are in the wrong profession to begin with

overperformer wrote:

empyreanrrv wrote:

overperformer wrote:if u have a good job with income coming in... of course going to michigan would guarantee this job.

~50% of Michigan grads are getting that 'good job' that will pay off sticker debt. The rest are not. Very far from guaranteed, and UMich is not a school I would go to at sticker. (this IMPLIES debt, if I'm not paying anything then what do I care?)

what are u talking about. 95% of michigan grads are employed with an median income of nearly 140K

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... &show=sals

compare that to 83% and 65K at WSU

in two years of practicing, on average, the 100K investment difference is negated.

nothings guanteed, but if ur in the bottom 5% that didn;t make it, then u probably wouldnt make it regardless of what law skool u attend and are in the wrong profession to begin with

What did I just read?

overperformer wrote:

empyreanrrv wrote:

overperformer wrote:if u have a good job with income coming in... of course going to michigan would guarantee this job.

~50% of Michigan grads are getting that 'good job' that will pay off sticker debt. The rest are not. Very far from guaranteed, and UMich is not a school I would go to at sticker. (this IMPLIES debt, if I'm not paying anything then what do I care?)

what are u talking about. 95% of michigan grads are employed with an median income of nearly 140K

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... &show=sals

compare that to 83% and 65K at WSU

in two years of practicing, on average, the 100K investment difference is negated.

nothings guanteed, but if ur in the bottom 5% that didn;t make it, then u probably wouldnt make it regardless of what law skool u attend and are in the wrong profession to begin with

um....

Key Facts:

48% of this school's graduates were employed and reported a salary.
We know that at least 24% of this school's graduates made $145,000 or more.

Michigan is definitely TCR here. I'm in a very similar situation. I got accepted to Michigan and Michigan State with a full ride to Michigan State (didn't apply to Wayne). I'm taking Michigan just because the job prospects are so much better.

overperformer wrote:

empyreanrrv wrote:

overperformer wrote:if u have a good job with income coming in... of course going to michigan would guarantee this job.

~50% of Michigan grads are getting that 'good job' that will pay off sticker debt. The rest are not. Very far from guaranteed, and UMich is not a school I would go to at sticker. (this IMPLIES debt, if I'm not paying anything then what do I care?)

what are u talking about. 95% of michigan grads are employed with an median income of nearly 140K

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... &show=sals

compare that to 83% and 65K at WSU

in two years of practicing, on average, the 100K investment difference is negated.

nothings guanteed, but if ur in the bottom 5% that didn;t make it, then u probably wouldnt make it regardless of what law skool u attend and are in the wrong profession to begin with

The response rate is 48%. The only thing you can tell from that data is that 24% of the class is earning 145k. You can easily tell that by looking at the NLJ data too.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

NLJ (biglaw approximation) is about 40%. Even adding a generous 5% for firms that didn't report, you're looking at ~45% of the students making biglaw market salary.

overperformer wrote:

empyreanrrv wrote:

overperformer wrote:if u have a good job with income coming in... of course going to michigan would guarantee this job.

~50% of Michigan grads are getting that 'good job' that will pay off sticker debt. The rest are not. Very far from guaranteed, and UMich is not a school I would go to at sticker. (this IMPLIES debt, if I'm not paying anything then what do I care?)

what are u talking about. 95% of michigan grads are employed with an median income of nearly 140K

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... &show=sals

compare that to 83% and 65K at WSU

in two years of practicing, on average, the 100K investment difference is negated.

nothings guanteed, but if ur in the bottom 5% that didn;t make it, then u probably wouldnt make it regardless of what law skool u attend and are in the wrong profession to begin with

1. Only 75% are in LT, FT legal jobs. http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... show=chars

2. Less than 50% will end up in desirable outcomes (biglaw + fed clerkships) sufficient to pay off sticker debt.

3. Looking at the median salary is almost as worthless as looking at the average.

If you want to work in Michigan but want any sort of security blanket from a high chance of unemployment, you'd be making a colossal mistake to not go to Michigan or another highly ranked midwestern school that has an alumni network in SE Michigan (schools like NU and ND are the two I've heard are the next best). But honestly, any T-14 gives you a shot, Michigan gives you the best shot.