UT Austin vs. Michigan Forum

[PunkedbyReality]

I received scholarships of $15,000 per year and $18,000 per year from UT and Michigan respectively; this also goes much farther at UT for me because I have in-state tuition of $33,000. Based on this information and the total costs provided on the website, I have done net present value (NPV) analysis on the cost of attending. My numbers are below. Here are my assumptions:

Chances of getting $160K starting salary:
UT - %30
Michigan - %40
I simply assumed that if I don't get a BigLaw salary then I would take a public service job with a starting salary of 55K.

EXPECTED VALUE WITH AN 8-YEAR OUTLOOK:
UT Austin: $308, 041
Michigan: $290,280

The value of UT is higher because it will cost so much less, but Michigan is not far behind because it provides roughly a 10% better chance of getting $160K starting. If I don't get BigLaw, then Michigan will put me in a tricky debt situation. But, Michigan is also a stronger school with more legitimate national reach. National reach and other qualitative criteria like this are making the decision a hard one. I would ideally like national reach, a collegial environment, and a moderate/liberal culture.

Where would you go?

[WokeUpInACar]

Do you mind staying in Texas permanently? Or do you just want Biglaw anywhere you can get it?

[PunkedbyReality]

I don't mind staying in Texas, but I'm not set on it either. I want to go to the school that will provide me with the best options. I don't have a crystallized vision of my career goals, but will be shaped by whichever school I attend. My heart isn't set on BigLaw by any means (as I'm sure no one's is), but it just seems like the most sensible way to pay off the debt.

[StylinNProfilin]

Where you want to practice? If you want to stay in Texas go to UT the extra 100k isnt worth it.

[PunkedbyReality]

Not sure about where to practice really. I grew up in and dig Austin, but I could do Houston or Dallas too. I also could do NYC, DC, Cali or something too I think. I'm not set on any specific region, but I know I could do Texas.

[WokeUpInACar]

I don't mind staying in Texas, but I'm not set on it either. I want to go to the school that will provide me with the best options. I don't have a crystallized vision of my career goals, but will be shaped by whichever school I attend. My heart isn't set on BigLaw by any means (as I'm sure no one's is), but it just seems like the most sensible way to pay off the debt.

I'd definitely think about how COL would factor into your EV calculations. Also UT also seems to place more students into "midlaw" than almost anywhere else. I don't know if Michigan is worth that much more money. I'd go ahead and try to negotiate with Michigan either way though.

[StylinNProfilin]

yeah like you said Michigan has better national reach and biglaw will hire deeper in the class. But I dont think the difference is big enough to offset the difference in cost, but I'm very debt averse and Michigans employment numbers havent been anything spectactular as of late. UT can still get you to NYC/Cali but ur looking at finishing above top 25%. Hearing that you'd be fine with Houston/Dallas would make me say UT.

[ATR]

Keep in mind that Michigan has an excellent loan repayment plan (at least they did two years ago when I was applying). How does Texas's stack up against Michigan's?

[curious66]

yeah like you said Michigan has better national reach and biglaw will hire deeper in the class. But I dont think the difference is big enough to offset the difference in cost, but I'm very debt averse and Michigans employment numbers havent been anything spectactular as of late. UT can still get you to NYC/Cali but ur looking at finishing above top 25%. Hearing that you'd be fine with Houston/Dallas would make me say UT.

UT's employment numbers are worse than Michigans -- however, if you are ok with Texas (which it seems) then UT is an excellent choice.

[Ti Malice]

What would your living situation in Austin be? Borrowing for rent just like you would in Ann Arbor?

[StylinNProfilin]

yeah like you said Michigan has better national reach and biglaw will hire deeper in the class. But I dont think the difference is big enough to offset the difference in cost, but I'm very debt averse and Michigans employment numbers havent been anything spectactular as of late. UT can still get you to NYC/Cali but ur looking at finishing above top 25%. Hearing that you'd be fine with Houston/Dallas would make me say UT.

UT's employment numbers are worse than Michigans -- however, if you are ok with Texas (which it seems) then UT is an excellent choice.

Isnt this exactly what I said?

[PunkedbyReality]

Keep in mind that Michigan has an excellent loan repayment plan (at least they did two years ago when I was applying). How does Texas's stack up against Michigan's?

Texas' does not appear to be as strong as Michigan's. I've looked more into Michigan's because they seem to use theirs as a selling point more than UT does, but it also does appear to be more favorable. Although, I'm not really even positive how UT's works.

[PunkedbyReality]

What would your living situation in Austin be? Borrowing for rent just like you would in Ann Arbor?

Maybe, but it might also be possible for me to find a sweeter deal because I know a lot of people in Austin, or I could even stay with my parents who live in the suburbs.

Actually, I haven't really considered borrowing for rent. Do people usually take out outside loans to cover their living costs? I'd like to factor in these costs if I can.

Ti Malice, I really appreciated your insight on a past post of mine about which schools to apply to. Where would you go in this situation? Would you try and negotiate? And would you take NYU sticker over these two offers?

[Sheffield]

With UT you are good everywhere in Texas (and the southwestern states too). Michigan’s base seems to be Chicago, which has been in a steady downward spiral.

[ajclark1992]

I've got the same decision as you (The Michigan degree would cost 100k more, the NYU degree significantly more). Only difference is that I definitely want to be in Texas after graduation. The only thing I have left to do before I put a UT deposit down is visit Austin.

[rad lulz]

But, Michigan is also a stronger school with more legitimate national reach. National reach and other qualitative criteria like this are making the decision a hard one.

If you don't have preexisting ties to regions other than Texas, the only "national reach" really afforded to you will be the ability to bid on NYC firms during OCI.

[NinerFan]

Surprised no one has said that the idea that one can say that they "Will do biglaw unless I strike out, in which case 55k PI job!" is flawed.

[Ti Malice]

Where you want to practice? If you want to stay in Texas go to UT the extra 100k isnt worth it.

How are you arriving at the $100K figure from the original post? The difference in tuition cost would be more like $45K (or possibly a few thousand more, if Michigan's tuition increases outstrip UT's).

[WokeUpInACar]

Where you want to practice? If you want to stay in Texas go to UT the extra 100k isnt worth it.

How are you arriving at the $100K figure from the original post? The difference in tuition cost would be more like $45K (or possibly a few thousand more, if Michigan's tuition increases outstrip UT's).

More like 60k plus interest

[Tiago Splitter]

Surprised no one has said that the idea that one can say that they "Will do biglaw unless I strike out, in which case 55k PI job!" is flawed.

The PI part might be flawed, but assuming 55K from these schools if you don't get 160K seems reasonable.

[Ti Malice]

What would your living situation in Austin be? Borrowing for rent just like you would in Ann Arbor?

Maybe, but it might also be possible for me to find a sweeter deal because I know a lot of people in Austin, or I could even stay with my parents who live in the suburbs.

Actually, I haven't really considered borrowing for rent. Do people usually take out outside loans to cover their living costs? I'd like to factor in these costs if I can.

Ti Malice, I really appreciated your insight on a past post of mine about which schools to apply to. Where would you go in this situation? Would you try and negotiate? And would you take NYU sticker over these two offers?

Yeah, people usually take out loans to cover living expenses, unless they're married with a working spouse or living with their parents. Schools calculate an overall cost of attendance for determining the maximum amount of federal loans you can receive, and this includes tuition, room and board, books, health insurance, etc.

UT vs. Michigan is a tough call here (putting aside NYU for now), and I think it hinges upon your living situation in Austin. Using this year's tuition and costs of attendance for each school, you would borrow ~$103K for UT over three years and ~$156K for UM if you lived on your own in each place (a few thousand more for both in reality, since tuition will rise). I would have to wait and see Michigan's placement numbers in another few weeks before I could give a firm opinion here one way or the other. The 2011 class didn't fare that well, though plenty of people say that was an anomaly; apparently UM's career office gave poor guidance on bidding strategy for that class. But I would like to see the 2012 numbers.

On the other hand, I think it's a very easy call for UT if you could live with your folks for free. I'm sure that doesn't sound much fun, but getting a UT JD for $54K (or a few thousand more) would seem like a no-brainer here.

As for NYU, paying sticker is just scary to me. That's $234K in loans before interest going by present tuition, which, again, is certain to rise. I don't think that's a better option than any of the above possibilities. Others may disagree.

By the way, I searched your old posts to see what I said before, and I was sorry to see that neither I nor anyone else saw/responded to your final question. I don't know if retaking the LSAT is still something you would consider at this point, but the truth is that no school outside of YHS would care if you had four LSAT scores.

[Ti Malice]

Where you want to practice? If you want to stay in Texas go to UT the extra 100k isnt worth it.

How are you arriving at the $100K figure from the original post? The difference in tuition cost would be more like $45K (or possibly a few thousand more, if Michigan's tuition increases outstrip UT's).

More like 60k plus interest

Not seeing it. His total tuition at Michigan and UT would be ~$99K and ~$54K based on current rates, respectively. Before interest, of course.

[WokeUpInACar]

Where you want to practice? If you want to stay in Texas go to UT the extra 100k isnt worth it.

How are you arriving at the $100K figure from the original post? The difference in tuition cost would be more like $45K (or possibly a few thousand more, if Michigan's tuition increases outstrip UT's).

More like 60k plus interest

Not seeing it. His total tuition at Michigan and UT would be ~$99K and ~$54K based on current rates, respectively. Before interest, of course.

I read it wrong and had the amounts switched around. My bad.

[PunkedbyReality]

I've got the same decision as you (The Michigan degree would cost 100k more, the NYU degree significantly more). Only difference is that I definitely want to be in Texas after graduation. The only thing I have left to do before I put a UT deposit down is visit Austin.

Yeah man, it looks like you're in a nice situation. Let me ask you this though, how do you know you want to be in Texas after graduation?

[PunkedbyReality]

Surprised no one has said that the idea that one can say that they "Will do biglaw unless I strike out, in which case 55k PI job!" is flawed.

Yeah, it is kind of flawed from an NPV standpoint generally speaking, but for my situation it makes sense because I am going to pursue public service if I don't get BigLaw. So if I don't get my first option (BigLaw), then I'm going to go into public service/public interest. I'm just using the % of grads from each school who get BigLaw as a surrogate for my chances, and then the chances of me going 55K are 1- probability of BigLaw. This is flawed in the sense that there is a chance I take a job that pays me an amount between 55K and 160K, and that this will be a reasonable route once I'm in law school. But, from where I'm sitting right now, this appears to model my interests and the respective schools' placement probabilities fairly well.