Top Law Schools

Hello everyone,

I am trying to decide between these three schools and would love some outside input.

NYU has offered me 62.5k scholarship while UVA has offered 90k and Mich 67.5k.

My goal is to work in IP law, hopefully in a large firm. I do not have any strong geographic preference for where I work in the future though admittedly I lack exposure to big city life and have a slight inclination for warmer weather--read California/Texas. I love the architecture and new housing at Mich.

My BS is in Biochemistry with a minor in mathematics. I have work experience as a researcher in chemistry and have written an undergraduate thesis on a physical chemistry topic.

The major questions I have are:
Will going to NYU provide significantly better biglaw placement opportunities than Mich or UVA?
Will going to Mich provide more placement options in a geographic sense?
Does the extra money at UVA make it an obvious choice over Mich?


Estimated COAs for academic year from each school (as provided by the school)
NYU: $78,112
UVA: $71,800
Mich yearly: $69,950

Data from LST (based on class of 2011):
Employment score (% with full time, long term employment except solo practitioners):
NYU: 89.3% (43.1% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 12.2% school funded)
UVA: 94.7% (37.1% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 17% school funded)
Mich: 75.5% (34% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 3.2% school funded)

50th percentile salaries (2011):
NYU: 145k
UVA: 160k
Mich: 145k

My estimated costs of attendance (based on the school's provided information minus scholarship):
NYU: 171836
UVA: 125400
Mich: 142350

Thank you for your input!

I think UVA easily beats out Michigan in this situation. I'd pick your preference over NYU and UVA but I lean slightly towards NYU because it gives you an increased shot at Biglaw.

What's the total COA at each? UVA > Michigan is a no-brainer with the bigger scholarship. UVA vs. NYU is a close one, but I'll reserve my answer until seeing how much each actually costs. Also, do you have a hard science degree or any prior experience? That increases your odds at big law and probably alters the calculus a little bit.

dacs wrote:Hello everyone,

I am trying to decide between these three schools and would love some outside input.
NYU and Mich have both offered me 62.5k scholarship and UVA has offered 90k.

My goal is to work in IP law, hopefully in a large firm. I do not have any strong geographic preference for where I work in the future though admittedly I lack exposure to big city life and have a slight inclination for warmer weather--read California/Texas. I love the architecture and new housing at Mich.
The major questions I have are:
Will going to NYU provide significantly better biglaw placement opportunities than Mich or UVA?
Will going to Mich provide more placement options in a geographic sense?
Does the extra money at UVA make it an obvious choice over Mich?

Thank you for your input!

NYU has the best chance for biglaw .. but money does not go that far in NYC, so keep that in mind. HOwever, Michigan places very well across the country -- something I'm not sure UVA does. If you don't mind a bit more cost of living, go for NYU.

You save about $6.5k/yr just from difference in COA. Round that to $20k over three years. Plus the almost $30k difference in scholly money means it's about $50k (plus interest) difference between UVA and NYU. IP generally is a little safer, and you seem to be willing (if not especially eager) to work in NYC if it came to that. I think UVA is the clear choice here.

Thanks all for the input, I was also under the impression that Mich has slightly better reputation nationally than UVA.

dixon02 wrote:What's the total COA at each? UVA > Michigan is a no-brainer with the bigger scholarship. UVA vs. NYU is a close one, but I'll reserve my answer until seeing how much each actually costs. Also, do you have a hard science degree or any prior experience? That increases your odds at big law and probably alters the calculus a little bit.

I will find the COAs and post them up here, my assumption is NYU is the highest but Mich and UVA will be close.
EDIT:
Estimated COAs for academic year:
*NYU: $78,112 (excluding wardrobe, bar expenses, and estimated 2413 monthly personal fee/19304 per 8 months)
*97416 Including personal fees
UVA: $71,800 (includes personal fees)
Mich yearly: $69,950 (includes personal fees)

My B.S. is in biochemistry and I have a minor in mathematics. No work experience in a law field but I have worked as a researcher in a physical chemistry lab and wrote an undergraduate thesis related to physical chemistry.

Try negotiating with Mich for more $$$ and tell them that about your NYU and UVA offers.

Huh, why is the COA higher at UVA than Mich? Is Charlottesville really that much more expensive than Ann Arbor?

Mich's "national reputation" is just a euphemism for "Mich doesn't have a home market." If anything it's a weakness in the current economy and has contributed to Mich's lousy employment scores.

Crowing wrote:Huh, why is the COA higher at UVA than Mich? Is Charlottesville really that much more expensive than Ann Arbor?

Mich's "national reputation" is just a euphemism for "Mich doesn't have a home market." If anything it's a weakness in the current economy and has contributed to Mich's lousy employment scores.

Interesting, I just looked up employment scores on LST.

I will add that into the top post.

Data from LST:
Employment score (% with full time, long term employment except solo practitioners):
NYU: 89.3% (43.1% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 12.2% school funded)
UVA: 94.7% (37.1% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 17% school funded)
Mich: 75.5% (34% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 3.2% school funded)

50th percentile salaries:
NYU: 145k
UVA: 160k
Mich: 145k

Total estimated COA:
NYU: 280,065
UVA: 264, 085
Mich: 254,753

Mich's "national reputation" is just a euphemism for "Mich doesn't have a home market."

Not really. Michigan has been highly ranked for decades, and used to be top ~5 (in the dark ages). (Prestige and reputation take a long time to catch up to reality.)

But yes, Michigan does not have a home market. Regardless, I would still submit that Michigan travels better. How much better (no one really knows.)

Big Dog wrote:

Mich's "national reputation" is just a euphemism for "Mich doesn't have a home market."

Not really. Michigan has been highly ranked for decades, and used to be top ~5 (in the dark ages). (Prestige and reputation take a long time to catch up to reality.)

But yes, Michigan does not have a home market. Regardless, I would still submit that Michigan travels better. How much better (no one really knows.)

Yeah Mich has a really good reputation historically but that doesn't mean anything if it doesn't translate into jobs. Their reputation scores are still really high but outcomes have suffered for several years now. I haven't seen any evidence that definitively explains why, but the no home market is a popular theory (firms withdrawing to traditional top feeders in bad economy).

Take Michigan out of the equation then choose how important warmer weather for 3 years is. If you can handle colder weather and city life, NYU in a heartbeat.

When you say:

Edit:
Estimated COAs for academic year from each school:
*NYU: $78,112 (excluding wardrobe, bar expenses, and estimated 2413 monthly personal fee/19304 per 8 months)
*97416 Including personal fees
UVA: $71,800 (includes personal fees)
Mich yearly: $69,950 (includes personal fees)

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you just giving us the school total for each year w/o consideration of your scholarship? I think it's more helpful if you take into consideration your scholarship and calculate how much debt you would have from each school for all 3 years total.

NYU is going to go further in NYC. Outside of that the 3 are the same. If you've got 90K at one vs. 65K at the other and no preference for a market I would lean towards the one where you have 90K (UVA). Your IP eligible background basically cements it in favor of UVA. Keep your debt low, get a IP job, and donate less of your paycheck to DirectLoans.gov

So it looks like you're talking about a total COA difference of about $100k between UVA and NYU? If I'm reading that correctly, then I don't think it's even close. No way would I pay an extra hundred thousand (before interest, which is significant) for an extra 6% chance at big law (during a terrible year for all schools), especially with your hard science background. I think UVA is easy here.

.

dacs wrote:

Crowing wrote:Huh, why is the COA higher at UVA than Mich? Is Charlottesville really that much more expensive than Ann Arbor?

Mich's "national reputation" is just a euphemism for "Mich doesn't have a home market." If anything it's a weakness in the current economy and has contributed to Mich's lousy employment scores.

Interesting, I just looked up employment scores on LST.

I will add that into the top post.

Data from LST:
Employment score (% with full time, long term employment except solo practitioners):
NYU: 89.3% (43.1% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 12.2% school funded)
UVA: 94.7% (37.1% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 17% school funded)
Mich: 75.5% (34% at firms with 101+ attorneys, 3.2% school funded)

50th percentile salaries:
NYU: 145k
UVA: 160k
Mich: 145k

Total estimated COA:
NYU: 280,065
UVA: 264, 085
Mich: 254,753

It is these employment numbers as well as the much higher cost to attend NYU, which make me question all of this "T-6" shit that always is floating around on TLS. If I am put in a position where I have to decide between NYU and Michigan (don't care for UVA all that much), I would have a very hard time justifying NYU. I guess in TLS's eyes I would be turning down the "T-6". The problem is Michigan seems to be going downhill as of late. I have always been very fond of the school.

How do we know OP has a hard science background? OP, are you talking patents or soft IP? What is your degree in? That could make a difference if people are assuming you have a marketable hard science degree.

Either way, if you want a big firm, I actually do think NYU is worth it, especially if California is on your mind.

piccolittle wrote:How do we know OP has a hard science background? OP, are you talking patents or soft IP? What is your degree in? That could make a difference if people are assuming you have a marketable hard science degree.

Either way, if you want a big firm, I actually do think NYU is worth it, especially if California is on your mind.

dacs wrote:My B.S. is in biochemistry and I have a minor in mathematics. No work experience in a law field but I have worked as a researcher in a physical chemistry lab and wrote an undergraduate thesis related to physical chemistry.

And you would pay 100 grand extra for NYU? Personally, I think that's crazy talk.

piccolittle wrote:How do we know OP has a hard science background? OP, are you talking patents or soft IP? What is your degree in? That could make a difference if people are assuming you have a marketable hard science degree.

Either way, if you want a big firm, I actually do think NYU is worth it, especially if California is on your mind.

Sorry, I have posted it in the OP. I have a biochem BS and a math minor as well as some research experience.

I don't have a strong preference as to hard or soft (im assuming copyrights, trade secret, and trademark are what you are calling soft)

Thanks for your input!

NYU. The debt load is going to be high at all of them, requiring you to catch BigLaw. Make that catch a bit easier and attend NYU.

iMisto wrote:NYU. The debt load is going to be high at all of them, requiring you to catch BigLaw. Make that catch a bit easier and attend NYU.

Thanks for the input.

I apologize everyone, I am not sure what I was thinking but I fixed the numbers above due to me misinterpreting NYU's COA--I didnt realize the personal expenses were built into the COA

The COA for NYU looks a little low. Use this:

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admission ... eid=112745

Wow UVA and its not even close. You are IP secure from those schools with that UG degree. I would go wherever your debt will be lowest and dont look back. 90k from UVA is really solid. NYU might be better for someone who was just looking for general biglaw with a liberal arts degree, but its not worth the extra debt for you

UVA imo. NYU isn't worth 50k more than UVA.