Top Law Schools

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ools-.html

This should help compare whose LST score is legit, and whose are inflated. I do want to caution that not all these school funded positions qualify as "full-time, long term." Each school's program is different. BU's seems to last only 10 months, so those wouldn't be considered "long term" by the ABA (and thus LST). GWU's are specifically designed to last 1 year, so all of their 15% are counted as "full-time, long term." The "long term" cutoff is 1 year to accommodate judicial clerkships.

Notre Dame: 22.6%
Boston University: 22.0%
UCLA: 18.6%
Virginia: 17.0%
Phoenix: 16.8%
Vanderbilt: 15.7%
George Washington: 15.6%
McGeorge: 15.2%
Golden Gate: 14.1%
Florida Coastal: 13.7%
New Hampshire: 13.6%
Fordham: 13.3%
Georgetown: 13.0%
Cornell: 12.9%
CUNY: 12.6%
Chicago: 12.3%
NYU: 12.2%
Yale: 12.2%
Emory: 11.6%
Case Western: 11.4%
Miami: 11.4%

There's a decent number of T30 schools on there.

I don't think these programs are all that bad, as they are certainly better than the graduate sitting around doing nothing. And they are actually learning some skills. And some of these probably end up leading to permanent positions. The only thing that annoys me about them is that they inflate the employment numbers, which give some applicants false hope.

JCougar wrote: I don't think these programs are all that bad, as they are certainly better than the graduate sitting around doing nothing.

It's worse than "doing nothing." It gives people hope that they will one day be a lawyer and they struggle by on $10/hr. If this didn't exist, people who give up hope (which is the most dangerous part of all) much quicker and they would just get a real job like bar tending or something else that paid more than $10/hr. Might as well get started on your new career now rather than delay it for 10 months of being a glorified intern.

This confirms it: Yale is a TTT.

I'm starting to wonder exactly what they consider to be a "school funded" position. I know that we (UVA) have a number of fully funded multi-year positions for people in the public sector. For example, I have an acquaintance who recently won a fellowship to have her public interest work funded for two years. So, although I'm fairly certain that not all of the UVA school funded positions are like that, I'm not certain that it's just safe to assume that all school funded positions are crap. Some of them are actually fairly good.

UVAIce wrote:This confirms it: Yale is a TTT.

I'm starting to wonder exactly what they consider to be a "school funded" position. I know that we (UVA) have a number of fully funded multi-year positions for people in the public sector. For example, I have an acquaintance who recently won a fellowship to have her public interest work funded for two years. So, although I'm fairly certain that not all of the UVA school funded positions are like that, I'm not certain that it's just safe to assume that all school funded positions are crap. Some of them are actually fairly good.

Yeah, I would say that, at least within the T10, some of these positions aren't all that bad. Some of them may be at PI organizations that would normally hire but are simply low on donations/funding.

GWU/BU's programs of paying people $10/hour are unlikely to qualify as such.

JCougar wrote:

UVAIce wrote:This confirms it: Yale is a TTT.

I'm starting to wonder exactly what they consider to be a "school funded" position. I know that we (UVA) have a number of fully funded multi-year positions for people in the public sector. For example, I have an acquaintance who recently won a fellowship to have her public interest work funded for two years. So, although I'm fairly certain that not all of the UVA school funded positions are like that, I'm not certain that it's just safe to assume that all school funded positions are crap. Some of them are actually fairly good.

Yeah, I would say that, at least within the T10, some of these positions aren't all that bad. Some of them may be at PI organizations that would normally hire but are simply low on donations/funding.

GWU/BU's programs of paying people $10/hour are unlikely to qualify as such.

The figures are on LST also and I think jenesaislaw said something about them not being incorporated into overall LST scores because they don't know how many of those jobs are actually legit.

UVAIce wrote:This confirms it: Yale is a TTT.

I'm starting to wonder exactly what they consider to be a "school funded" position. I know that we (UVA) have a number of fully funded multi-year positions for people in the public sector. For example, I have an acquaintance who recently won a fellowship to have her public interest work funded for two years. So, although I'm fairly certain that not all of the UVA school funded positions are like that, I'm not certain that it's just safe to assume that all school funded positions are crap. Some of them are actually fairly good.

The problem is that the number of school funded jobs was only 7 back in 2008. I'm sure a lot of these people are working for legit PI orgs but what happens at the end of that year?

I still don't understand why UVA is struggling to place people. What is it about UVA that makes it struggle? Why are some of the other lower T-14's not having this problem?

Crowing wrote: The figures are on LST also and I think jenesaislaw said something about them not being incorporated into overall LST scores because they don't know how many of those jobs are actually legit.

No, it's the other way around. The ones that are one year long are included in the LST score because they don't know how many to subtract. Which is why GWU claims 80% employment, when it really should be about 65%.

bizzybone1313 wrote:I still don't understand why UVA is struggling to place people. What is it about UVA that makes it struggle? Why are some of the other lower T-14's not having this problem?

Even if you subtract the entirety of the UVA's school-funded jobs it isn't doing any worse than the rest of the lower T14. UVA has like a 94% employment score with the school-funded rate incorporated.

bizzybone1313 wrote:I still don't understand why UVA is struggling to place people. What is it about UVA that makes it struggle? Why are some of the other lower T-14's not having this problem?

You finish at the bottom of the class at a T14, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

jenesaislaw wrote:The Employment Score only includes a certain segment of jobs: long-term, full-time bar passage required jobs. We then subtract out those in long-term, full-time solo practice. We don't subtract out everybody in solo practice because the other three categories (LT, PT; ST, FT; ST, PT) have already been excluded.

To be in solo practice, you have to have your law license, so it is by definition a subcategory of bar passage required. The same does not hold true for school-funded jobs because some of these jobs are J.D. Advantage (it depends on the school). Rather than let this problem obfuscate the numbers, we add the asterisks.

The asterisk indicates the maximum number of people in school-funded jobs that might be included in the Employment Score. Like solos, there are four subcategories of school-funded jobs. The only subcategory that might be included in the Employment Score is long-term, full-time school funded. the other three categories (LT, PT; ST, FT; ST, PT) have already been excluded.

GW's number is very high because their school-funded jobs are almost all (if I recall correctly) LT, FT. Compare this to GULC and Vandy: almost all are not LT, FT.

So essentially every individual school needs to be taken in context - it is not enough to simply look at the overall employment score and the school-funded rate, because they don't necessarily mean the same thing in each situation. Hence the asterisks and differing figures from them.

e.g.

Vandy - 73.2% employed, 15.7% school-funded (0% contributed to employment score)
UVA - 94% employed, 17% school-funded (up to full 17% contributed)
GULC - 62.4% employed, 13% school-funded (up to 3% contributed)

Some want to act like the T14 is some impenetrable zone unaffected by how bad it is for law grads. Yeah I'm sure they're choosing these kind of "jobs". Whatever people want to say to believe there's still some safe haven where law school is a good idea in 2013.

Having contacted an alumnus of my UG, I asked about the school funded jobs. This person goes to UVA and his response was a nice defense of school funded jobs. Obviously his explanation doesn't apply to every school funded job but perhaps many in the T14:

"I'm not sure to what you're referring about the sweetening the numbers, but you may be referring to the post-grad fellowships they offer. If so, you're perhaps seeing deceit where there isn't any. In many jobs, like prosecutors or public defenders, employers won't even look at you until after you have bar exam results back saying you're a real lawyer that can appear in court, usually in October or so. So UVA offers a bridge fellowship to a lot of people where they give them some money to go work somewhere and there's a kind of tacit understanding with many of these places that you will work for free from August to October, but that they will try their best to hire you after bar exam results come in. At least for the group of people that literally have no job prospects until October, these fellowships are invaluable because they provide a valuable bridge for 2-3 months where recent graduates would otherwise have nothing to do. I wouldn't be surprised if all schools had similar programs. I don't know much about the fellowships other than how they affect these people because those are the friends I took the Prosecution Clinic with."

Nickg415 wrote:Having contacted an alumnus of my UG, I asked about the school funded jobs. This person goes to UVA and his response was a nice defense of school funded jobs. Obviously his explanation doesn't apply to every school funded job but perhaps many in the T14:

"I'm not sure to what you're referring about the sweetening the numbers, but you may be referring to the post-grad fellowships they offer. If so, you're perhaps seeing deceit where there isn't any. In many jobs, like prosecutors or public defenders, employers won't even look at you until after you have bar exam results back saying you're a real lawyer that can appear in court, usually in October or so. So UVA offers a bridge fellowship to a lot of people where they give them some money to go work somewhere and there's a kind of tacit understanding with many of these places that you will work for free from August to October, but that they will try their best to hire you after bar exam results come in. At least for the group of people that literally have no job prospects until October, these fellowships are invaluable because they provide a valuable bridge for 2-3 months where recent graduates would otherwise have nothing to do. I wouldn't be surprised if all schools had similar programs. I don't know much about the fellowships other than how they affect these people because those are the friends I took the Prosecution Clinic with."

This is just total bull crap. Are you sure you didn't accidentally email the UVA admissions office or maybe its career services? First of all, the 94% figure doesn't include short-term positions like the ones he is describing. If the people in those fellowships obtain bona fide legal employment after the bar results are out, you can bet your bottom dollar that UVA is reporting their real legal jobs in the nine-months-after-graduation figure we are discussing here. In fact, these short-term tide overs he is talking about are totally irrelevant if they end in Oct or Nov bc the employment figures are not calculated until Feb or Mar. Nice try. Any school-funded jobs included in the total are people for whom the Aug-Oct tide over was insufficient....they are still unemployed nine months after graduation, and they graduated from a T10.

The way you can tell these programs at places like UVA are not the desired prestigious PI fellowships is by comparing the number of students who did them in 2007/8 to now. I dont have the numbers but I would eat my hat if more than 3-5% if 2007/8 UVA grads were in school-funded jobs. UVA is not special or different or more insulated. For the vast majority if those students, that outcome is unsatisfactory. I mean think about it for yourself: how happy would you be to have paid six figures and three prime years of your life for a degree only to be paid maybe 15 dollars an hour by your degree-granting school bc no one will hire you despite the fact that you passed the bar months ago?

ETA: all this doesn't prove deceit on UVA's part though (although perhaps that was poor word choice on his part bc I think he means more like self-interested). We don't really know what their motives are, and, regardless, it is helpful for the students to get some legal experience on their résumé trough the volunteer work UVA subsidizes (curious what happens to the loans that can't be paid back at all on 15 bucks an hr...)

lol, just lol

Lawl school is shit

JCougar wrote: I don't think these programs are all that bad, as they are certainly better than the graduate sitting around doing nothing. And they are actually learning some skills. And some of these probably end up leading to permanent positions. The only thing that annoys me about them is that they inflate the employment numbers, which give some applicants false hope.

Agreed. And, at least at UCLA, these positions can pay MUCH better than $10/hour. Closer to $30/hour, according to a recent grad that I spoke to.

somewhatwayward wrote: The way you can tell these programs at places like UVA are not the desired prestigious PI fellowships is by comparing the number of students who did them in 2007/8 to now. I dont have the numbers but I would eat my hat if more than 3-5% if 2007/8 UVA grads were in school-funded jobs.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

7 in 2008, 64 in 2011 and apparently even higher in 2012.

I agree that the positions shouldn't be viewed as employed for comparing schools, but to say they're worthless is just not true. Students should look at them as a perk, like LRAP-a softer landing if things blow up. It's also worth noting that schools doing this causes some (dumb) people to not take the job search as seriously or hold out for a better job if they've been offered one they don't like.

These numbers will also not stay this high permanently. These statistics are from the class of 2011, which had the most brutal results of any class to date. It's rough out there, but as schools and students adjust to the new normal things will get a little better.

andythefir wrote: These numbers will also not stay this high permanently. These statistics are from the class of 2011, which had the most brutal results of any class to date. It's rough out there, but as schools and students adjust to the new normal things will get a little better.

The evidence actually shows the opposite. The number of people in these jobs is going up, up, up. GW's percentage increased to over 20% this year.

As schools realize they can game the stats with these positions if they extend them to 1 year, they will only expand the programs. I'm not sure that's totally bad, as it at least gets students who would be otherwise totally unemployed some actual experience and at least not living on food stamps (although BU's only pays $10/hour, which might be food-stamp wages in an expensive city like Boston). It also gets them a foot in the door somewhere.

But they shouldn't be used to inflate the school's job stats.

Will this actually help graduates resume's though? Or be viewed as some BS school job and see it as "no experience"?

I don't think they would list the school job on the resume-- I think the point is that the school "fellowship" allows them to pad their resume with unpaid volunteer work.

JCougar wrote:

bizzybone1313 wrote:I still don't understand why UVA is struggling to place people. What is it about UVA that makes it struggle? Why are some of the other lower T-14's not having this problem?

You finish at the bottom of the class at a T14, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

This terrifies me.

Also interested to hear thoughts on peer schools- why UVA and not P/B, why UCLA and not USC? Or are those grads just unemployed and the school's not helping at all?

twinkletoes16 wrote:

JCougar wrote:

bizzybone1313 wrote:I still don't understand why UVA is struggling to place people. What is it about UVA that makes it struggle? Why are some of the other lower T-14's not having this problem?

You finish at the bottom of the class at a T14, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

This terrifies me.

Also interested to hear thoughts on peer schools- why UVA and not P/B, why UCLA and not USC? Or are those grads just unemployed and the school's not helping at all?

If you're paying about $125k+ or whatever and don't have a PI or govt. background, drop out if you don't get a 2L SA.

Nickg415 wrote:Having contacted an alumnus of my UG, I asked about the school funded jobs. This person goes to UVA and his response was a nice defense of school funded jobs. Obviously his explanation doesn't apply to every school funded job but perhaps many in the T14:

"I'm not sure to what you're referring about the sweetening the numbers, but you may be referring to the post-grad fellowships they offer. If so, you're perhaps seeing deceit where there isn't any. In many jobs, like prosecutors or public defenders, employers won't even look at you until after you have bar exam results back saying you're a real lawyer that can appear in court, usually in October or so. So UVA offers a bridge fellowship to a lot of people where they give them some money to go work somewhere and there's a kind of tacit understanding with many of these places that you will work for free from August to October, but that they will try their best to hire you after bar exam results come in. At least for the group of people that literally have no job prospects until October, these fellowships are invaluable because they provide a valuable bridge for 2-3 months where recent graduates would otherwise have nothing to do. I wouldn't be surprised if all schools had similar programs. I don't know much about the fellowships other than how they affect these people because those are the friends I took the Prosecution Clinic with."

Lulz yeah that sounds like it came straight out of the mouth of someone in our admissions/careers service office. It has a little bit of truth thrown in to make it sound good--but it's mostly garbage.

bizzybone1313 wrote:I still don't understand why UVA is struggling to place people. What is it about UVA that makes it struggle? Why are some of the other lower T-14's not having this problem?

It's not doing worse than its peers. It's just more open about its stats and "fellowships".

twinkletoes16 wrote: Also interested to hear thoughts on peer schools- why UVA and not P/B, why UCLA and not USC? Or are those grads just unemployed and the school's not helping at all?

I actually think the bolded part is more correct. Which is why I'm not necessarily against these "fellowships."

I am against them being counted as full-time, long-term jobs, though.

UVA really isn't worse than its peers. It's just that their employment score looks better than their peers with these "fellowships" added in (which is why their LST employment score is like 94% or something, when it should be closer to 77%).