WUSTL V University of Missouri Forum

[lutcf2021]

WUSTL 20k a year

University of Missouri Full ride

For someone who is considering staying MO, but not deadset. And why?

[Crowing]

How much do you care about biglaw? And how do you know your WUSTL scholly; I thought they hadn't released any yet.

[lutcf2021]

How much do you care about biglaw? And how do you know your WUSTL scholly; I thought they hadn't released any yet.

1) Don't care much about biglaw. But he wouldn't turnn it down (writing for my neighbor)
2) He doesn't. He's just comparing numbers from previous years and current students who go there. he is pretty confident in the estimate.

[nebula666]

I wouldn't take out $200k in debt to go to WUSTL.

[Crowing]

How much do you care about biglaw? And how do you know your WUSTL scholly; I thought they hadn't released any yet.

1) Don't care much about biglaw. But he wouldn't turnn it down (writing for my neighbor)
2) He doesn't. He's just comparing numbers from previous years and current students who go there. he is pretty confident in the estimate.

Then I would definitely take Mizzou.

[westie25]

WUSTL 20k a year

University of Missouri Full ride

For someone who is considering staying MO, but not deadset. And why?

100% Mizzou. WashU is not worth that kind of debt when there is a full ride from Mizzou on the table. Mizzou has more pull, more connection, and a stronger alumni net in Missouri.

[TheThriller]

obligatory RETAKE.

[Summer2016]

I graduated from WUSTL with good grades and am lucky to even get a screening interview. Choose Mizzou. Small chance WUSTL will open up any additional doors and 100% chance you'll be stuck with lots of debt.

[Crowing]

obligatory RETAKE.

If he doesn't care about biglaw and wants to stay in MO then Mizzou for free is fine.

[TheThriller]

obligatory RETAKE.

If he doesn't care about biglaw and wants to stay in MO then Mizzou for free is fine.

"considering, but not deadset"

If he can snag a T14, he can have to option to head back to MO if he wants. A retake will also give him more money at WUSTL if he would prefer to go there.

[Crowing]

obligatory RETAKE.

If he doesn't care about biglaw and wants to stay in MO then Mizzou for free is fine.

"considering, but not deadset"

I'm assuming he has MO ties, in which case if he doesn't really care for biglaw it's not a real good idea to go to a different school hoping to get shitlaw in another state. We all know national portability is a flame anyway.

[TheThriller]

this guy sounds like doesn't seem to know what really wants. Maybe MO, maybe not. Doesn't care much about Biglaw, but wouldn't turn it down....

If hes is AT ALL unsure of living in MO or has ANY hesitation about spending the rest of his life making 40-60k doing DUI defense in the middle of nowhere MO, he should retake.

[romothesavior]

I graduated from WUSTL with good grades and am lucky to even get a screening interview. Choose Mizzou. Small chance WUSTL will open up any additional doors

This is objectively false and over the top, but I do agree Mizzou with a full ride is better than WUSTL at that price if you're indifferent to biglaw/STL.

[Pumpkin_Pie]

Mizzou owns Missouri. No question, take the full ride.

[soccerfreak]

-He really shouldn't assume a scholarship number...Wash U's numbers have been dropping, and lower scores may now merit larger scholarships.

-So he's assuming his scholarship at Wash U...is he assuming his Mizzou full ride as well? I got basically a full ride at Wash U, yet no money whatsoever from Mizzou...he may not get as much as he thinks either.

-Wash U really does open up doors Mizzou doesn't (nationally, and easier to get biglaw in Stl/KC). Mizzou probably opens up ones Wash U doesn't (particularly in local government). It just depends on his goals.

-HOWEVER, if it's really 20k at WUSTL vs. full ride at Mizzou, then I'd advise Mizzou.

[Crowing]

Mizzou owns Missouri. No question, take the full ride.

I'm a big fan of Mizzou as a good guy school and think that IF he indeed does not care about biglaw, is willing to commit to working in MO, and does end up with a full-ride at Mizzou vs. 60k @ Wash U, then Mizzou is clearly the best choice.

But let's not get carried away - Wash U is still easily the strongest school in MO and has a lot more potential for higher-end outcomes than Mizzou.

[JCougar]

I wouldn't take out $200k in debt to go to WUSTL.

I have half the scholarship this guy assumes he's getting, and I'm not taking out anywhere near $200K in debt.

It depends on what this guy wants to do. If he is fine doing family/DUI/traffic ticket law at a small firm, it's better to just go for no debt. You can be happy choosing this path if your debt doesn't kill you. But there's no question WUSTL opens up more doors, even at the smaller firms--especially if you are from MO. My summer internship in STL never even asked for my transcript (and I've never lived in MO in my life). They were just like "we just assume that if you're from WUSTL, you're good enough to work here." It was a small TTT firm, but it was a good experience for the summer and I got paid. I'm always saying to pay less for law school, but a 50% ride at WUSTL is not that bad.

I think it also depends on his level of undergrad debt.

[westie25]

I wouldn't take out $200k in debt to go to WUSTL.

I have half the scholarship this guy assumes he's getting, and I'm not taking out anywhere near $200K in debt.

It depends on what this guy wants to do. If he is fine doing family/DUI/traffic ticket law at a small firm, it's better to just go for no debt. You can be happy choosing this path if your debt doesn't kill you. But there's no question WUSTL opens up more doors, even at the smaller firms--especially if you are from MO. My summer internship in STL never even asked for my transcript (and I've never lived in MO in my life). They were just like "we just assume that if you're from WUSTL, you're good enough to work here." It was a small TTT firm, but it was a good experience for the summer and I got paid. I'm always saying to pay less for law school, but a 50% ride at WUSTL is not that bad.

I think it also depends on his level of undergrad debt.

I'm not sure this story is a reason why a person should decline a full ride at Mizzou to attend WashU w/ debt. A person from Mizzou could easily gain the same type of internship. One thing that cannot be ignored in STL, and throughout the State of Missouri, is the alumni network/connections Mizzou has in the legal field. I've worked in the legal field for 7+ years. In MO, WashU does not have more pull than Mizzou. Most people who attend WashU get the hell out of dodge after graduation, but the majority of Mizzou grads stay in MO & are employed in MO. WashU does not have some super special prestige. It just doesn't. If the poster knew for sure that his friend wanted to leave MO after graduation, then maybe considering the hypothetical WashU scholarship would make sense. Even then, eh. Taking on the risk of law school plus taking on the risk of debt to maybe, possibly, have a better shot at a job outside of MO, I just don't think it's worth the debt plus living expenses. Because once you leave MO you have to factor in grads from schools higher ranked than WashU, and those regional schools in the chosen state that will have more pull than WashU.

If the person really has a full ride to Mizzou, is pretty sure he/she will stay in MO, and is indifferent to biglaw, then going the debt free route to Mizzou is a no brainer.

[JCougar]

I'm not sure this story is a reason why a person should decline a full ride at Mizzou to attend WashU w/ debt. A person from Mizzou could easily gain the same type of internship. One thing that cannot be ignored in STL, and throughout the State of Missouri, is the alumni network/connections Mizzou has in the legal field. I've worked in the legal field for 7+ years. In MO, WashU does not have more pull than Mizzou. Most people who attend WashU get the hell out of dodge after graduation, but the majority of Mizzou grads stay in MO & are employed in MO. WashU does not have some super special prestige. It just doesn't. If the poster knew for sure that his friend wanted to leave MO after graduation, then maybe considering the hypothetical WashU scholarship would make sense. Even then, eh. Taking on the risk of law school plus taking on the risk of debt to maybe, possibly, have a better shot at a job outside of MO, I just don't think it's worth the debt plus living expenses. Because once you leave MO you have to factor in grads from schools higher ranked than WashU, and those regional schools in the chosen state that will have more pull than WashU.

If the person really has a full ride to Mizzou, is pretty sure he/she will stay in MO, and is indifferent to biglaw, then going the debt free route to Mizzou is a no brainer.

Are you kidding? In MO, people think WUSTL is Harvard. The reason it's hard to get a MO job from WUSTL is because every firm thinks you will bolt for better pastures when the opportunity arises.

Unfortunately, WUSTL's prestige in other areas isn't actually as good as MO firms think it is. In 2006, WUSTL grads could get two years of experience and then fly off to Chicago or NYC if they didn't get jobs from those firms from OCI. Since the collapse of the Chicago market, however...good luck even getting an interview there unless you're from NW/UofC.

If you're actually from MO, though, there's not that flight risk associated with you. Local doods here outside the top 1/3 have Biglaw.

[Crowing]

I wouldn't take out $200k in debt to go to WUSTL.

I have half the scholarship this guy assumes he's getting, and I'm not taking out anywhere near $200K in debt.

It depends on what this guy wants to do. If he is fine doing family/DUI/traffic ticket law at a small firm, it's better to just go for no debt. You can be happy choosing this path if your debt doesn't kill you. But there's no question WUSTL opens up more doors, even at the smaller firms--especially if you are from MO. My summer internship in STL never even asked for my transcript (and I've never lived in MO in my life). They were just like "we just assume that if you're from WUSTL, you're good enough to work here." It was a small TTT firm, but it was a good experience for the summer and I got paid. I'm always saying to pay less for law school, but a 50% ride at WUSTL is not that bad.

I think it also depends on his level of undergrad debt.

I'm not sure this story is a reason why a person should decline a full ride at Mizzou to attend WashU w/ debt. A person from Mizzou could easily gain the same type of internship. One thing that cannot be ignored in STL, and throughout the State of Missouri, is the alumni network/connections Mizzou has in the legal field. I've worked in the legal field for 7+ years. In MO, WashU does not have more pull than Mizzou. Most people who attend WashU get the hell out of dodge after graduation, but the majority of Mizzou grads stay in MO & are employed in MO. WashU does not have some super special prestige. It just doesn't. If the poster knew for sure that his friend wanted to leave MO after graduation, then maybe considering the hypothetical WashU scholarship would make sense. Even then, eh. Taking on the risk of law school plus taking on the risk of debt to maybe, possibly, have a better shot at a job outside of MO, I just don't think it's worth the debt plus living expenses. Because once you leave MO you have to factor in grads from schools higher ranked than WashU, and those regional schools in the chosen state that will have more pull than WashU.

If the person really has a full ride to Mizzou, is pretty sure he/she will stay in MO, and is indifferent to biglaw, then going the debt free route to Mizzou is a no brainer.

Maybe this is true in rural Missouri, but I know many lawyers personally at both firms and corporations in STL and in STL Wash U clearly has the advantage.

FYI I am neither a current or future Mizzou or Wash U student so I have no personal stock in any of this.

[romothesavior]

-He really shouldn't assume a scholarship number...Wash U's numbers have been dropping, and lower scores may now merit larger scholarships.

-So he's assuming his scholarship at Wash U...is he assuming his Mizzou full ride as well? I got basically a full ride at Wash U, yet no money whatsoever from Mizzou...he may not get as much as he thinks either.

-Wash U really does open up doors Mizzou doesn't (nationally, and easier to get biglaw in Stl/KC). Mizzou probably opens up ones Wash U doesn't (particularly in local government). It just depends on his goals.

-HOWEVER, if it's really 20k at WUSTL vs. full ride at Mizzou, then I'd advise Mizzou.

This post is 100% spot on

[westie25]

I have 7+ years in the legal field in St. Louis. WashU is not at all seen as a Harvard type of school. It's seen as a good school, but prestige? Not really. From my experience, and from the people I know, they receive no hiring preference over Mizzou or SLU. Connections & networks have a huge pull in the MO legal field, and WashU doesn't have that over Mizzou (or SLU in STL).

Anyway, it still makes no sense to take on the debt + living expenses at WashU to (probably) stay in MO when there is a full ride at Mizzou. $20K still means there's $24K tuition left to pay and about $10K-ish in living expenses. That's still $100K+ in debt compared to only living expenses ($30K) at Mizzou.

I don't go to WashU or Mizzou either. I've just seen attorneys from all 3 major MO law schools come in and out for over 7 years, and I've never seen special consideration given to a grad from WashU over Mizzou or SLU.

[romothesavior]

I have 7+ years in the legal field in St. Louis. WashU is not at all seen as a Harvard type of school. It's seen as a good school, but prestige? Not really. From my experience, and from the people I know, they receive no hiring preference over Mizzou or SLU. Connections & networks have a huge pull in the MO legal field, and WashU doesn't have that over Mizzou (or SLU in STL).

Anyway, it still makes no sense to take on the debt + living expenses at WashU to (probably) stay in MO when there is a full ride at Mizzou. $20K still means there's $24K tuition left to pay and about $10K-ish in living expenses. That's still $100K+ in debt compared to only living expenses ($30K) at Mizzou.

I don't go to WashU or Mizzou either. I've just seen attorneys from all 3 major MO law schools come in and out for over 7 years, and I've never seen special consideration given to a grad from WashU over Mizzou or SLU.

Look, I don't disagree that Wash U isn't worth 100k more than a Mizzou degree if you want to stay in Mizzou. Assuming that's the kind of price difference this person is looking at, I think I (and most of the WUSTL students in this thread) would advise Mizzou. We agree there.

But if we're talking about big firm hiring, then yes, WUSTL has a pretty significant leg up on SLU in this market, and a huge leg up on Mizzou. The big firms here will go much further into our class than they will at either of those schools. Can't speak as much to smaller firms, government, and PI. I worked in a government job my 1L summer and the office was dominated by SLU grads, but every intern in the office was from WUSTL. The small firm I work at now is 3:1 WUSTL to SLU clerks despite the office being far more SLU-heavy. I think you underestimate how much self-selection plays into the disparity. Meanwhile, none of the places I've worked have had much of a Mizzou presence. (All very anecdotal, I realize.)

Let's all just chill out and see what the total cost of attendance is for the two schools and go from there. Assuming it is this big of a difference, then yes, I agree Mizzou.

[lutcf2021]

Update:

Money is out
15k @ MU (tuition is 18k)
28k @WUSTL (tuition is 45k)

Opinions?

[Presidentjlh]

Any other schools that you have applied to that are similar to WUSTL? I'd try negotiating scholarship at WUSTL first.