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UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:36 pm
by Robin Van Persie
Really debt averse. Have savings (around 50kish) to cover cost of living. Can I get biglaw in Chicago/Texas/DC with no ties if I go to UVA? I want big law to get experience and then lateral to midlaw or government or any other legal job with less hours.
What are options graduating median or above at UVA? I would drop out if I was below median after 1L year by the way.
Am I absurd for thinking I should take the money and run? In this economy?
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:41 pm
by UVAIce
All depends. You can get Texas and DC without ties from UVA with median grades - I know more than a few people who have done so. Although, you would certainly have a better shot at Texas over DC with median grades. The thing is that HLS will basically lock you in for either of those. You might want to take a look at what need based aid HLS gives you.
Where do you have ties?
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:50 pm
by somewhatwayward
Any other options? Penn? NW? I'd recommend those over UVA although you might lose a bit of edge in TX with those....maybe Duke?
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:51 pm
by 09042014
Robin Van Persie wrote:Really debt averse. Have savings (around 50kish) to cover cost of living. Can I get biglaw in Chicago/Texas/DC with no ties if I go to UVA? I want big law to get experience and then lateral to midlaw or government or any other legal job with less hours.
What are options graduating median or above at UVA? I would drop out if I was below median after 1L year by the way.
Am I absurd for thinking I should take the money and run? In this economy?
You can't reliably get Chicago/Texas without having ties, even from Yale.
HYS is better than UVA for DC. But I'd take UVA. DC cost of living is high and full loans are a bitch. But even DC sorta wants ties in my experience.
Your parents and you are aren't poor are they? Sometimes YHS give good scholarships.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:56 pm
by Robin Van Persie
Parents aren't poor, but, they aren't wealthy either. I'd rather have a UVA degree making 100k after big law than a HYS degree with over one hundred thousand in debt.
I really don't want debt hanging over me.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:06 pm
by UVAIce
UVA free is a good deal. I know a number of UVA students who have Texas without ties. Heck, I know people with strong ties to California and none with Texas who had offers in Houston and Dallas. Admittedly these people were not scared and unsocial.
I'm firmly in the camp that Penn and NWU are really not all that much of a better deal than UVA. If you're at median or below you will essentially have the same options. However, median is no place you want to be at any of those institutions ITE.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:01 am
by IrwinM.Fletcher
Take UVA and hustle hard for interviews outside of OCI.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:37 am
by AllTheLawz
I wouldn't call it a tough choice. 100% UVA.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:47 am
by hephaestus
AllTheLawz wrote:I wouldn't call it a tough choice. 100% UVA.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:56 am
by envisciguy
I'd take a full ride at virtually any of the top 14 over HYS. It's hard to beat free.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:39 am
by Nelson
Robin Van Persie wrote:Parents aren't poor, but, they aren't wealthy either. I'd rather have a UVA degree making 100k after big law than a HYS degree with over one hundred thousand in debt.
I really don't want debt hanging over me.
If you're that debt averse then go to UVA but recognize that DC is going to require excellent grades from MVP, not just above median.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:22 am
by nebula666
Prestige is nice, a free degree from a T14, in my opinion, is better.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:46 am
by dixon02
I don't think you can go wrong here. From everything you've described, UVA is the right choice. But just remember that HYS all have pretty great LRAPs, so the odds of living in a cardboard box are pretty low. Have you heard from the big three on financial aid? Assuming you get nothing and would be paying sticker, going to UVA with $150K (plus cost of living savings) is perfectly justifiable if not the smart thing to do.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:26 am
by NYstate
OP I am extremely debt averse and would not have gone to law school if my father had not left money for me to go to school, so I managed no debt :
I suggest reading Radlulzs thread linking to the NALP data about SA hiring being flat and 3L hiring virtually non-existent. There is not a single article suggesting it will improve in the next 2 years.
But I agree that harvards LRAP program can mitigate the debt. I would still pick UVa.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... hilit=Nalp
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:27 am
by stevenash1313
envisciguy wrote:I'd take a full ride at virtually any of the top 14 over HYS. It's hard to beat free.
Definitely, you'd be an idiot to not take UVA. debt is real.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:31 am
by JamMasterJ
Is it YS or H?
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:34 am
by AllTheLawz
JamMasterJ wrote:Is it YS or H?
Only on TLS does it matter.. In real life there is no distinction for 90%+ of applicants.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:01 am
by JamMasterJ
AllTheLawz wrote:JamMasterJ wrote:Is it YS or H?
Only on TLS does it matter.. In real life there is no distinction for 90%+ of applicants.
It matters in getting a job too but w/e
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:08 am
by JamesDean1955
AllTheLawz wrote:JamMasterJ wrote:Is it YS or H?
Only on TLS does it matter.. In real life there is no distinction for 90%+ of applicants.
Definitely not true, but in OP's situation I'd still say take the money at UVA. If OP wanted a prestigious clerkship and/or academia (which, who knows, maybe he'll change his mind, you never know with law school) there is an even greater distinction between Yale and Harvard. Is this TLS consensus? Yes. Does that make it any less true? No.
And I'm definitely not someone who always agrees with TLS groupthink advice.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:25 am
by JamesDean1955
UVAIce wrote:UVA free is a good deal. I know a number of UVA students who have Texas without ties. Heck, I know people with strong ties to California and none with Texas who had offers in Houston and Dallas. Admittedly these people were not scared and unsocial.
I'm firmly in the camp that Penn and NWU are really not all that much of a better deal than UVA. If you're at median or below you will essentially have the same options. However, median is no place you want to be at any of those institutions ITE.
TLS definitely has the ties thing way overblown when it comes to most major legal markets. Yes, I'm an 0L. But I'm also familiar with biglaw hiring procedures through my work. Not going to elaborate any more on that, just giving my two cents.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:27 am
by 02889
OP, I think you have to consider that if you'll want anything other than BigLaw (mainly a clerkship, but also if you want DOJ Honors (which basically requires a COA clerkship) or a prestigious PI fellowship), your chances from Harvard are on a completely different level than at UVA.
You accomplished something very impressive by getting a full ride at UVA, but employers don't know that, and you lose out on all the very real benefits of HYS prestige. Is that worth $150k in debt? I don't know. But unlike other posters, I think it is nothing close to an easy answer.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:55 am
by Dany
I would absolutely take the money at UVA. Congrats on the awesome options.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:13 pm
by AllTheLawz
JamMasterJ wrote:AllTheLawz wrote:JamMasterJ wrote:Is it YS or H?
Only on TLS does it matter.. In real life there is no distinction for 90%+ of applicants.
It matters in getting a job too but w/e
Ive been through OCI at H and have a lot of friends at YS who went through it in the same year.
It doesn't matter for getting a "normal" job. It does matter for getting a clerkship (which then matters for academia and certain elite lit firms).
The idea of the bottom third student at H who strikes out but would've gotten a job if he went to another one of HYS is mostly a TLS myth. People dont strike out at any of HYS solely because of grades unless their grades are truly horrible.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:39 pm
by JamesDean1955
AllTheLawz wrote:JamMasterJ wrote:AllTheLawz wrote:JamMasterJ wrote:Is it YS or H?
Only on TLS does it matter.. In real life there is no distinction for 90%+ of applicants.
It matters in getting a job too but w/e
Ive been through OCI at H and have a lot of friends at YS who went through it in the same year.
It doesn't matter for getting a "normal" job. It does matter for getting a clerkship (which then matters for academia and certain elite lit firms).
The idea of the bottom third student at H who strikes out but would've gotten a job if he went to another one of HYS is mostly a TLS myth. People dont strike out at any of HYS solely because of grades unless their grades are truly horrible.
I don't have the evidence on hand, but pretty sure for prestigious PI jobs (in addition to clerkships/academia) Yale > Harvard. If by "normal" jobs you mean biglaw, then you're probably right they won't go any deeper into the classes.
Another factor to take into account is that if you want California, S > H, for obvious geographic reasons.
EDIT: And yeah there are a few of those "elite" firms out there like you mentioned that have preferences for H, Y, or S grads.
Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:54 pm
by AllTheLawz
JamesDean1955 wrote:AllTheLawz wrote:JamMasterJ wrote:AllTheLawz wrote:
Only on TLS does it matter.. In real life there is no distinction for 90%+ of applicants.
It matters in getting a job too but w/e
Ive been through OCI at H and have a lot of friends at YS who went through it in the same year.
It doesn't matter for getting a "normal" job. It does matter for getting a clerkship (which then matters for academia and certain elite lit firms).
The idea of the bottom third student at H who strikes out but would've gotten a job if he went to another one of HYS is mostly a TLS myth. People dont strike out at any of HYS solely because of grades unless their grades are truly horrible.
I don't have the evidence on hand,
but pretty sure for prestigious PI jobs (in addition to clerkships/academia) Yale > Harvard. If by "normal" jobs you mean biglaw, then you're probably right they won't go any deeper into the classes.
Another factor to take into account is that if you want California, S > H, for obvious geographic reasons.
EDIT: And yeah there are a few of those "elite" firms out there like you mentioned that have preferences for H, Y, or S grads.
Sorry to be taking this off-topic but there are a few bits of TLS misinformation here that needs to be stopped. Prestigious PI (to the degree that they hire entry-level) having a preference between Harvard and Yale is absurd. There are multiple factors that will play a much, much bigger part than which of HYS you attended.
Second, elite firms have a preference for certain clerkships/work experience more so than a certain school. To the degree that you might have a better chance to get that type of clerkship from Y, it matters. But once you cross that hurdle I doubt that your school matters.
TLS really overvalues the differences between peer schools for a given student.