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Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:30 pm
by Roy____
Question answered.
Thanks everyone!
Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:36 pm
by timbs4339
Roy____ wrote:Hi Everyone,
I've been lurking for a while, and I need some advice...
Here's my situation. I own a business in Los Angeles and would like to go to law school part-time. My business is very closely associated with the law field (mostly dominated by attorneys) and I would like to take the next step.
Since I want to do evening school, my two options are Loyola LA or Southwestern. This is my dilemma:
Loyola is offering me a stipulated scholarship (have to remain in the top 50%) and my total cost of attendance will be around $50K. If I don't maintain a 3.2 GPA the cost of attendance will rise to around $110K.
Southwestern Law offered me a full tuition scholarship including summer school for the part-time program. I have about a 90% chance of keeping the scholarship.
Is the quality of education at Loyola worth the price? Since I'm not interested in getting hired right out of law school, employment numbers are nearly meaningless for me.
Thanks again for everyone's kindness and help.
What exactly do you hope to get out of law school in terms of the content of your education? Law school education does little else but teach you how to think like an appellate litigator or judge. People go for the signaling factor or the ability to take the bar exam and become a lawyer. If you think taking the bar exam and becoming an attorney is an investment that will pay off for your business, or you want to have the JD to gain respect among lawyers, then Southwestern all the way. If you're hoping to gain substantive legal knowledge or develop legal skills, you learn that by actually practicing law.
The content of the education will not vary between schools, unless you are hoping to work directly with a professor in a subspecialty of law that Loyola has and Southwestern does not. The quality of student may vary slightly, but probably not in any way you'd notice.
Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:40 pm
by Roy____
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Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:44 pm
by timbs4339
Roy____ wrote:Pretty much the most important thing for me is to get my bar card.
It's rough because the only thing I have to go on for quality of education are law school rankings. But I know that doesn't tell the whole story. Southwestern gets a lot of flack on this forum, and if my education is going to be significantly different at a T1/2 school I might be willing to pay the extra cash.
If, however, the education is strikingly similar, then it will be very difficult to turn down going to school for free...
In that case, Southwestern for free. No question.
Most, if not all, law schools use the same pedagogical method, teach the same courses, and look for the same attributes in their professors. Without going too deeply into the background and structure of legal education, it's supposed to teach "thinking like a lawyer," a skill nobody (especially USNWR) can really describe or measure. I'd be very surprised if the quality of the instruction varied much between Stanford and Southwestern, never mind Loyola and Southwestern.
You have a very enviable position. The ability to go to law school for free and a guaranteed job afterwards is a powerful combination. What type of business do you own?
Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:05 pm
by Roy____
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Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:08 pm
by timbs4339
Roy____ wrote:timbs4339 wrote:Roy____ wrote:Pretty much the most important thing for me is to get my bar card.
It's rough because the only thing I have to go on for quality of education are law school rankings. But I know that doesn't tell the whole story. Southwestern gets a lot of flack on this forum, and if my education is going to be significantly different at a T1/2 school I might be willing to pay the extra cash.
If, however, the education is strikingly similar, then it will be very difficult to turn down going to school for free...
In that case, Southwestern for free. No question.
Most, if not all, law schools use the same pedagogical method, teach the same courses, and look for the same attributes in their professors. Without going too deeply into the background and structure of legal education, it's supposed to teach "thinking like a lawyer," a skill nobody (especially USNWR) can really describe or measure. I'd be very surprised if the quality of the instruction varied much between Stanford and Southwestern, never mind Loyola and Southwestern.
You have a very enviable position. The ability to go to law school for free and a guaranteed job afterwards is a powerful combination. What type of business do you own?
That's pretty much the answer I was looking for...if there is no discernible difference in the quality of education then I'd rather not pay for it.
I do Social Security Disability Advocacy.
Then I really don't see any point to going to Loyola. It looks like Southwestern has both Admin and Disability course offerings. You should probably take the rest of your classes in the bar subjects if you want, the CA bar is the toughest in the nation.
Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:12 pm
by Roy____
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Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:28 pm
by timbs4339
Roy____ wrote:That's the decision I'm leaning towards as well.
Essentially, unless I get overwhelming evidence that Loyola will offer an education worthy of $100K of after tax income, Southwestern is where I will end up.
Thanks for the feedback. It's tough maintaining an objective viewpoint on law school when all you hear from multiple sources is "don't go unless your in T-14".
Well, you have a rare situation. For the average student looking at Loyola or Southwestern at sticker because they want a corporate job at O'Melveny so they can wear a suit every day, then the common wisdom of T-14 or bust is pretty good advice given the lack of biglaw placement of Loyola/Southwestern.
If you've determined that a bar license is a good investment for your business then employment stats matter less, and its more about whether you can get out in three years with low debt and take the bar. Since Loyola is not going to offer a better bar prep education, or a substantially different education from Southwestern, the choice is obvious.
Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:11 pm
by romothesavior
Roy____ wrote:Pretty much the most important thing for me is to get my bar card.
But what for?
If you can go for free part-time and are just looking for a degree, then I agree (and I can't believe I'm saying this) Southwestern is your best option.
Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:35 pm
by star fox
If you're established in business and using law school to advance in business as opposed to becoming an attorney it doesn't matter too much where you go to Law School.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:19 am
by Myself
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Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:08 am
by rad lulz
Go to Southwestern, but disabuse yourself of the motion now that law school really teaches you anything.
Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:49 am
by JCougar
Yup...Southwestern is credited here. In your case, minimizing the overall cost is the best option. Honestly, even if you were a normal law student (full time) I'd say Southwestern for free. Once you're outside of the top 25-30 or so law schools, other than going to an in-state public flagship, there's barely any difference in placement power let alone quality of education. And ITE, it's hard to even argue that anything outside of the T14 is that much of a leg up.
Honestly, US News should go back to just not ranking anything after the first 30-50 schools. Beyond that, everything's pretty much the same, minus some festering shit-piles that can't even place their Law Review EICs, like Cooley, Barry, Thomas Jefferson, and about a half-dozen other law schools in Florida.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:47 pm
by Myself
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Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:33 pm
by Roy____
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:38 pm
by Myself
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Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:08 pm
by North
ajax adonis wrote:What exactly are the requirements to keep the scholarship? I wouldn't trust any stats law schools give anymore. They've lost the benefit of the doubt.
Big +1. What are the stipulations on the money?
Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:15 pm
by Roy____
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Re: Advice Needed...Southwestern or Loyola? Non-Traditional
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:18 pm
by twenty
Roy____ wrote:The stipulation is to maintain a cumulative 2.7 GPA.
According to Wikipedia, their 1L mean is a 2.9, and the 2L and 3L means are a 3.0.
That's pretty solid. Southwestern.