Penn v. Cardozo $$$ (poll) Forum

[Cellar-door]

I think it boils down to:

How likely do you feel you will be able to service $270,000 in educational debt from Penn?
44% of Penn's graduating class made in excess of $145,000/yr.
66% of the class made in excess of $62,688/yr.
85% of graduates have non-school-funded jobs as lawyers.

How likely do you feel you will be able to service $120,000 in educational debt from Cardozo?
Cardozo has no available information about salary distribution among its graduates.
51% of graduates have non-school-funded jobs as lawyers.


I'm sure you've looked up this just as I have, but here's what it boils down to:

If you attend Cardozo, even at $40k/yr discount, with COA you're going to take on a crushing debt load serviceable only with a high paying job, of which there are an unknown amount. And at Cardozo, only half of the 302 graduates had a legal job of any kind.

If you attend Penn (presumably at sticker), with COA you're going to take on a crushing debt load serviceable only with a high paying job, of which 44% of last year's graduates ended up with. At Penn, nearly 90% of 261 graduates ended up with legal jobs.

And I'd wager that the school-funded positions Penn graduates get are at least slightly better than the ones Cardozo grads get.

I agree the OP should go to Penn, but where are you getting $120K for Cardozo? OP says she expects her total COA to be about $45K. Even with the interest it isn't going to be anywhere near $120K, it would be closer to $60K-$65K.

[stillwater]

I know people who went to 'bozo. They are assistants to the guy who slices the deli meat at Arby's. I appreciate the cost-analysis but at the end of the day you are saying: "okay, at least the chance at no job will be free"

[cahwc12]

I think it boils down to:

How likely do you feel you will be able to service $270,000 in educational debt from Penn?
44% of Penn's graduating class made in excess of $145,000/yr.
66% of the class made in excess of $62,688/yr.
85% of graduates have non-school-funded jobs as lawyers.

How likely do you feel you will be able to service $120,000 in educational debt from Cardozo?
Cardozo has no available information about salary distribution among its graduates.
51% of graduates have non-school-funded jobs as lawyers.


I'm sure you've looked up this just as I have, but here's what it boils down to:

If you attend Cardozo, even at $40k/yr discount, with COA you're going to take on a crushing debt load serviceable only with a high paying job, of which there are an unknown amount. And at Cardozo, only half of the 302 graduates had a legal job of any kind.

If you attend Penn (presumably at sticker), with COA you're going to take on a crushing debt load serviceable only with a high paying job, of which 44% of last year's graduates ended up with. At Penn, nearly 90% of 261 graduates ended up with legal jobs.

And I'd wager that the school-funded positions Penn graduates get are at least slightly better than the ones Cardozo grads get.

I agree the OP should go to Penn, but where are you getting $120K for Cardozo? OP says she expects her total COA to be about $45K. Even with the interest it isn't going to be anywhere near $120K, it would be closer to $60K-$65K.

I just took $40k/yr off sticker and added COA + interest (ballpark). OP says s/he's not paying, but unless s/he's living at home and/or getting funding, someone is. Personally (0L opinion) I think Penn is one of maybe five schools worth paying sticker at.

[Rahviveh]

I think it boils down to:

How likely do you feel you will be able to service $270,000 in educational debt from Penn?
44% of Penn's graduating class made in excess of $145,000/yr.
66% of the class made in excess of $62,688/yr.
85% of graduates have non-school-funded jobs as lawyers.

How likely do you feel you will be able to service $120,000 in educational debt from Cardozo?
Cardozo has no available information about salary distribution among its graduates.
51% of graduates have non-school-funded jobs as lawyers.


I'm sure you've looked up this just as I have, but here's what it boils down to:

If you attend Cardozo, even at $40k/yr discount, with COA you're going to take on a crushing debt load serviceable only with a high paying job, of which there are an unknown amount. And at Cardozo, only half of the 302 graduates had a legal job of any kind.

If you attend Penn (presumably at sticker), with COA you're going to take on a crushing debt load serviceable only with a high paying job, of which 44% of last year's graduates ended up with. At Penn, nearly 90% of 261 graduates ended up with legal jobs.

And I'd wager that the school-funded positions Penn graduates get are at least slightly better than the ones Cardozo grads get.

I agree the OP should go to Penn, but where are you getting $120K for Cardozo? OP says she expects her total COA to be about $45K. Even with the interest it isn't going to be anywhere near $120K, it would be closer to $60K-$65K.

I just took $40k/yr off sticker and added COA + interest (ballpark). OP says s/he's not paying, but unless s/he's living at home and/or getting funding, someone is. Personally (0L opinion) I think Penn is one of maybe five schools worth paying sticker at.

HYSChiP?

[Crowing]

I think it boils down to:

How likely do you feel you will be able to service $270,000 in educational debt from Penn?
44% of Penn's graduating class made in excess of $145,000/yr.
66% of the class made in excess of $62,688/yr.
85% of graduates have non-school-funded jobs as lawyers.

How likely do you feel you will be able to service $120,000 in educational debt from Cardozo?
Cardozo has no available information about salary distribution among its graduates.
51% of graduates have non-school-funded jobs as lawyers.


I'm sure you've looked up this just as I have, but here's what it boils down to:

If you attend Cardozo, even at $40k/yr discount, with COA you're going to take on a crushing debt load serviceable only with a high paying job, of which there are an unknown amount. And at Cardozo, only half of the 302 graduates had a legal job of any kind.

If you attend Penn (presumably at sticker), with COA you're going to take on a crushing debt load serviceable only with a high paying job, of which 44% of last year's graduates ended up with. At Penn, nearly 90% of 261 graduates ended up with legal jobs.

And I'd wager that the school-funded positions Penn graduates get are at least slightly better than the ones Cardozo grads get.

I agree the OP should go to Penn, but where are you getting $120K for Cardozo? OP says she expects her total COA to be about $45K. Even with the interest it isn't going to be anywhere near $120K, it would be closer to $60K-$65K.

I just took $40k/yr off sticker and added COA + interest (ballpark). OP says s/he's not paying, but unless s/he's living at home and/or getting funding, someone is. Personally (0L opinion) I think Penn is one of maybe five schools worth paying sticker at.

HYSChiP?

ChiTTTcago? Yeah right more like HYS/CLS/P

[bluepenguin]

Personally (0L opinion) I think Penn is one of maybe five schools worth paying sticker at.

I assume the logic here is that CCNP are quasi-peers, but Chicago/Philly COL makes sticker more palatable?

[BmoreOrLess]

"I cannot make a decision right now, other schools are considering scholarship offers, I will require an extension of my deposit deadline."

Does this work?

Worked for me with Alabama and GW for their second deadline (I got in off the waitlist).

[francesfarmer]

I agree the OP should go to Penn, but where are you getting $120K for Cardozo? OP says she expects her total COA to be about $45K. Even with the interest it isn't going to be anywhere near $120K, it would be closer to $60K-$65K.

I just took $40k/yr off sticker and added COA + interest (ballpark). OP says s/he's not paying, but unless s/he's living at home and/or getting funding, someone is. Personally (0L opinion) I think Penn is one of maybe five schools worth paying sticker at.

I would negotiate the 40k/year up to full tuition and then take out $15k/year to live on. I've lived on less in NYC. But Cardozo is a bad choice so this is not going to happen.

[law2015]

Personally (0L opinion) I think Penn is one of maybe five schools worth paying sticker at.

I assume the logic here is that CCNP are quasi-peers, but Chicago/Philly COL makes sticker more palatable?

Lol at that statement. Doubt he thought anything by that, probably just repeated some Penn troll post he read.

[francesfarmer]

Update on this: I haven't gotten into NYU yet, I got some need-based aid from Penn (not very much), and today I found out I'm getting a promotion. So there's that.

[romothesavior]

Update on this: I haven't gotten into NYU yet, I got some need-based aid from Penn (not very much), and today I found out I'm getting a promotion. So there's that.

Do you like your current job? Law school will always be here.

[francesfarmer]

Update on this: I haven't gotten into NYU yet, I got some need-based aid from Penn (not very much), and today I found out I'm getting a promotion. So there's that.

Do you like your current job? Law school will always be here.

Yeah, I like my job. I had tentatively decided not to go to law school this year barring any substantial aid and now I'm even more sure. I guess I need to stop lurking TLS!

[02889]

Update on this: I haven't gotten into NYU yet, I got some need-based aid from Penn (not very much), and today I found out I'm getting a promotion. So there's that.

Congrats on the promotion!

Assuming there's a corresponding pay raise, do you think you'll be able to save more money for the rest of the spring/summer? Or, if you defer a year, could you end up saving quite a bit of money? Near-sticker at Penn (or NYU, let's be serious) wouldn't hurt nearly as much if you had a hefty savings account balance by the time you enrolled.

[francesfarmer]

Update on this: I haven't gotten into NYU yet, I got some need-based aid from Penn (not very much), and today I found out I'm getting a promotion. So there's that.

Congrats on the promotion!

Assuming there's a corresponding pay raise, do you think you'll be able to save more money for the rest of the spring/summer? Or, if you defer a year, could you end up saving quite a bit of money? Near-sticker at Penn (or NYU, let's be serious) wouldn't hurt nearly as much if you had a hefty savings account balance by the time you enrolled.

I'm probably just going to defer Penn and then see how I feel about law school in a year. I have no idea how much more they're going to be paying me (this promotion is a result of my supervisor being put on bedrest this morning so its very new) but I wouldn't have more than $20,000 in the bank before law school. That's optimistic.

[02889]

Update on this: I haven't gotten into NYU yet, I got some need-based aid from Penn (not very much), and today I found out I'm getting a promotion. So there's that.

Congrats on the promotion!

Assuming there's a corresponding pay raise, do you think you'll be able to save more money for the rest of the spring/summer? Or, if you defer a year, could you end up saving quite a bit of money? Near-sticker at Penn (or NYU, let's be serious) wouldn't hurt nearly as much if you had a hefty savings account balance by the time you enrolled.

I'm probably just going to defer Penn and then see how I feel about law school in a year. I have no idea how much more they're going to be paying me (this promotion is a result of my supervisor being put on bedrest this morning so its very new) but I wouldn't have more than $20,000 in the bank before law school. That's optimistic.

Gotcha. That still would almost cover Philly COL for two years, assuming you continue spending judiciously. On top of what need-aid you received already, it's not a bad discount.

[francesfarmer]

Update on this: I haven't gotten into NYU yet, I got some need-based aid from Penn (not very much), and today I found out I'm getting a promotion. So there's that.

Congrats on the promotion!

Assuming there's a corresponding pay raise, do you think you'll be able to save more money for the rest of the spring/summer? Or, if you defer a year, could you end up saving quite a bit of money? Near-sticker at Penn (or NYU, let's be serious) wouldn't hurt nearly as much if you had a hefty savings account balance by the time you enrolled.

I'm probably just going to defer Penn and then see how I feel about law school in a year. I have no idea how much more they're going to be paying me (this promotion is a result of my supervisor being put on bedrest this morning so its very new) but I wouldn't have more than $20,000 in the bank before law school. That's optimistic.

Gotcha. That still would almost cover Philly COL for two years, assuming you continue spending judiciously. On top of what need-aid you received already, it's not a bad discount.

Yeah, it's still a lot of money, I don't know!

[romothesavior]

Good call OP. Defer, keep working, save up, and reassess.

[Rahviveh]

If you are going to defer you might as well try retaking the LSAT (if you think you can do better). That will obviously net you more money than any savings you can accumulate over the next year ($20k, while a lot money, is unfortunately still puny in the grand scheme of things).

[francesfarmer]

If you are going to defer you might as well try retaking the LSAT (if you think you can do better). That will obviously net you more money than any savings you can accumulate over the next year ($20k, while a lot money, is unfortunately still puny in the grand scheme of things).

Yeah, I've thought about it, even though I've already taken it twice. RC is the only section I don't do that great on (I went -1 LR and -7 RC to get my 172) and though that's the least learnable section I may give it a try. Maybe in like... June of 2014.

[francesfarmer]

This is probably my final update! I am not going to law school in the fall because its too much money. Am I crazy? This is everything as it stands now:

Still waiting on CLS (ding or endless WL, obviously)
WL at NYU, UVA, and UCLA
In at Penn ($40k), NU ($45k), Michigan ($30k), Cornell ($30k), Georgetown ($75k), Brooklyn (full tuition), and Cardozo ($120k).

I haven't negotiated anything. I'm considering deferring at Penn.

I guess I'm posting this for closure? I don't know. I'll be back when I have some WL movement or I reapply in two years.

[JamesDean1955]

This is probably my final update! I am not going to law school in the fall because its too much money. Am I crazy? This is everything as it stands now:

Still waiting on CLS (ding or endless WL, obviously)
WL at NYU, UVA, and UCLA
In at Penn ($40k), NU ($45k), Michigan ($30k), Cornell ($30k), Georgetown ($75k), Brooklyn (full tuition), and Cardozo ($120k).

I haven't negotiated anything. I'm considering deferring at Penn.

I guess I'm posting this for closure? I don't know. I'll be back when I have some WL movement or I reapply in two years.

I'm sorry but this just makes no sense to me. If you like your job and are 99.9% sure you want to keep working, that's great. But you can't spend 20-30 min writing a well-crafted letter to each school asking for more money to see where it leads?

Seriously, I don't know why you wouldn't at least try.

[francesfarmer]

This is probably my final update! I am not going to law school in the fall because its too much money. Am I crazy? This is everything as it stands now:

Still waiting on CLS (ding or endless WL, obviously)
WL at NYU, UVA, and UCLA
In at Penn ($40k), NU ($45k), Michigan ($30k), Cornell ($30k), Georgetown ($75k), Brooklyn (full tuition), and Cardozo ($120k).

I haven't negotiated anything. I'm considering deferring at Penn.

I guess I'm posting this for closure? I don't know. I'll be back when I have some WL movement or I reapply in two years.

I'm sorry but this just makes no sense to me. If you like your job and are 99.9% sure you want to keep working, that's great. But you can't spend 20-30 min writing a well-crafted letter to each school asking for more money to see where it leads?

Seriously, I don't know why you wouldn't at least try.

I may write such a letter tonight, but honestly the specter of debt is just killing my drive to go to law school. What can I realistically expect to get from any of these schools? $30,000 more dollars? That's a drop in the bucket. I hope I don't feel this way when I eventually reapply, but it's how I feel now.

[dissonance1848]

I think you should try to negotiate more OP.

Also, you should reapply and retake, since getting up to a 174/175 is definitely doable, and would increase the money you would get.

[JamesDean1955]

I'm not trying to antagonize you or anything, but if it were me, another $5,000.00-$15,000.00/year at Penn or NU would make law school worth it for me, when added to your initial awards, and I really, REALLY don't think this is beyond the realm of possibilities.

Honestly, because you are a splitter, it's likely that nothing significant will change if you reapply in 1, 2, or 5 years. Law school admissions may continue to go down but it won't be enough to make a difference. And more work experience, unless you are at Goldman Sachs or something uber-prestigious, isn't going to help you get into higher ranked schools or get more scholarship money (in fact, about 99% of jobs are only going to help you at OCI, and not with admissions). By deferring and saving more money, that will certainly help lighten your load burden but it's still your hard earned dollars you'd be spending and the question of whether law school is a worthy investment would remain unchanged.

Basically what I'm saying is this: if you aren't comfortable going to NU or Penn with $20k or $30k/year now (assuming you get an increase, which I think you have a good shot), your options aren't likely going to significantly change down the road (barring you retake the LSAT and get at least a 176), so I don't see this decision getting any easier for you.

Just my .02, sorry to make things harder lol. It's just if you're that risk averse and/or not passionate enough about doing legal work that the above conditions wouldn't seem worth it to you ($20k-$30k per year scholarships at two very good T14 schools, assuming an increase), law school is never going to be an attractive option for you.

EDIT: Didn't mean to exclude Cornell or Michigan, I think that they are also worthy options assuming a $20k-$30k/year award.

[francesfarmer]

You are right, and I'm waiting several years and hoping that I become less debt averse (or that I lose interest in becoming a lawyer, which unfortunately I don't think will happen). This year it's not happening for me.