UVA $$ V. Penn $ Forum

[IAFG]

So much "woosh" in this thread it's painful.

[Borg]

Haha good one guys. Anyway, whatever I'm sure that for most people the whole scandal is a memory and it won't even matter in five years for the school. I just care because it was such a big deal and I worry about how people would perceive it at first glance on a resume.

So you won't go to any school with Pennsylvania in the name?

I guess if they opened another one that also somehow had Penn in the name then maybe I'd go because people would know it was different, but the scandal that happened at the one that exists now will probably have an effect for at least a decade I think.

[TripTrip]

Haha good one guys. Anyway, whatever I'm sure that for most people the whole scandal is a memory and it won't even matter in five years for the school. I just care because it was such a big deal and I worry about how people would perceive it at first glance on a resume.

So you won't go to any school with Pennsylvania in the name?

I guess if they opened another one that also somehow had Penn in the name then maybe I'd go because people would know it was different, but the scandal that happened at the one that exists now will probably have an effect for at least a decade I think.

Like if they opened one named "University of Pennsylvania" instead of "Penn State"?

[suralin]

So much "woosh" in this thread it's painful.

[Br3v]

So much "woosh" in this thread it's painful.

Honestly there was a period in this thread where I feel there was so much woosh that I am questioning whether it was some inception type deal where it was over my own head.

[Ti Malice]

180/4.33 for Borg. Nice work.

[Br3v]

Yep I was played, well done lol.

[Cobretti]

NLJ may be a good way to determine placement, but it is a pretty terrible way to determine placement ability. The only thing that matters is how deep into a law school class a firm will go, and none of that data for Penn suggests that it has any distinct advantage over MVPDN.

Here's a thread that lays out I'm talking about: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 8&start=25

Here's some better data

Vault V5:
Wachtell | UVa: 2 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | UVa: 8, Penn: 25
Sullivan | UVa: 31, Penn: 42
Skadden | UVa: 44, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | UVa: 26, Penn: 27
V5 Total | UVa: 111, Penn: 165
V5 Per Capita| UVa: 0.31, Penn: 0.68

Non-NY Based Elite:
Kirkland (Chi) | UVa: 39, Penn: 30
Latham (NY/LA) | UVa: 72, Penn: 44
Covington (DC) | UVa: 35, Penn: 23
Gibson (LA) | UVa: 34, Penn: 38
Sidley (Chi) | UVa: 48, Penn: 32
Williams & Connoly (DC) | UVa: 30; Penn: 16
Quinn (LA) | UVa: 15, Penn: 9
MoFo (SF) | UVa: 22, Penn: 25
Ropes & Gray (Boston) | UVa: 24, Penn: 28
Wilmerhale (DC) | UVa: 31, Penn: 28
Keker (SF) | UVa: 1, Penn: 1
Irell (LA) | UVa: 1, Penn: 5
"Non-NY" Total | UVa: 352, Penn: 279
"Non-NY" Per Capita | UVa: 0.99, Penn: 1.15

Penn class size: 243
UVa class size: 357

Thanks for taking the time to calculate this, definitely TCR. Paterno or not, I'm down with those numbers...

ETA: Where can i look up those figures? I'd be interested in seeing how NU compares too. TYIA

[banjo]

Pre-ITE stats are also pretty interesting for determining placement power: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

[IAFG]

Pre-ITE stats are also pretty interesting for determining placement power: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

Doesn't this really just show which schools send a great number of students to NY biglaw though? The question isn't really, "what do UVA/Penn students do?" it's "what options were available to UVA/Penn students?"

[Cobretti]

Pre-ITE stats are also pretty interesting for determining placement power: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

Doesn't this really just show which schools send a great number of students to NY biglaw though? The question isn't really, "what do UVA/Penn students do?" it's "what options were available to UVA/Penn students?"

I guess we have to assume UPenn bros and UVA bros want dat prestige equally. Do you know where to get more precise numbers on what minimum class rank each school (+NU?) needed for placement at V5/V20/etc?

[IAFG]

Pre-ITE stats are also pretty interesting for determining placement power: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

Doesn't this really just show which schools send a great number of students to NY biglaw though? The question isn't really, "what do UVA/Penn students do?" it's "what options were available to UVA/Penn students?"

I guess we have to assume UPenn bros and UVA bros want dat prestige equally. Do you know where to get more precise numbers on what minimum class rank each school (+NU?) needed for placement at V5/V20/etc?

I've compared notes on CB data with people at Mich, Penn, and Cornell and my impression was they're all about the same, despite having widely different placement stats. The reason it's not already compiled on TLS, I assume, is because schools tell us to keep that data to ourselves. Every T14 2L and 3L should have access to that information for their own school though.

Edit: also, I object to V20 NYC being our benchmark for "prestige." I would assume lots of GULC/UVA students would rather work for a lower V100 DC firm than an NYC V10.

[bk1]

I guess we have to assume UPenn bros and UVA bros want dat prestige equally. Do you know where to get more precise numbers on what minimum class rank each school (+NU?) needed for placement at V5/V20/etc?

Edit: also, I object to V20 NYC being our benchmark for "prestige." I would assume lots of GULC/UVA students would rather work for a lower V100 DC firm than an NYC V10.

This. Vault ranking equaling prestige is only really true in NYC (and even there not exactly). People who choose non-NYC places are much more likely to choose non-V5 firms, and not because they can't get them.

[banjo]

Pre-ITE stats are also pretty interesting for determining placement power: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html.

Doesn't this really just show which schools send a great number of students to NY biglaw though? The question isn't really, "what do UVA/Penn students do?" it's "what options were available to UVA/Penn students?"

I guess my impression was that, ITE, bidding on NYC is the safest way to go because it has the most jobs and experienced the most robust recovery. Obviously placement into NYC =/= ability to place into NYC, and I have no problem believing that UVA and Penn have similar GPA cutoffs, but a few posts on TLS (brucewayne: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0#p6215122; rayiner: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p3423353) suggest that firms like to hire more students from schools they're accustomed to hiring from. ITE it might be smart to pick a NYC-focused law school (like Penn) and bid exclusively on NYC plus your home market.

[bk1]

I guess my impression was that, ITE, bidding on NYC is the safest way to go because it has the most jobs and experienced the most robust recovery.

You realize your link is to 2006, not ITE, right?

[banjo]

I guess my impression was that, ITE, bidding on NYC is the safest way to go because it has the most jobs and experienced the most robust recovery.

You realize your link is to 2006, not ITE, right?

To the extent that those stats reveal placement power into NYC, and particularly into tippy-top firms with huge class sizes, aren't they still useful ITE?


eta: Obviously IAFG's point about self-selection still stands, but if you're already determined to play it safe and attend a NYC-focused school (CLS, NYU, Penn, Cornell), those old stats might actually be a good way to compare.

[5ky]

60k is a ton of money. I know it doesn't seem like it to those of you who are deciding on school, but I beg you to understand that it really is.

[IAFG]

I guess my impression was that, ITE, bidding on NYC is the safest way to go because it has the most jobs and experienced the most robust recovery.

You realize your link is to 2006, not ITE, right?

Exactly. Pre-ITE data is even more vulnerable to my concerns. It shows who goes to NYC when getting NYC is much easier than it is today.

[hung jury]

60k is a ton of money. I know it doesn't seem like it to those of you who are deciding on school, but I beg you to understand that it really is.

Seriously. Ignoring the 20k+ in interest, we're talking about a $1000 a month tax for the next 5 years of one's life to go to Paterno U instead of UVA. And this tax is collected regardless of circumstance.

[Borg]

So much "woosh" in this thread it's painful.

Honestly there was a period in this thread where I feel there was so much woosh that I am questioning whether it was some inception type deal where it was over my own head.

180/4.33 for Borg. Nice work.

Hahaha thank you, thank you, couldn't resist it just got too good as the thread went on! I'll never get tired of that joke, glad you guys were entertained and thanks Br3v for having a good sense of humor.

[FlightoftheEarls]

NLJ may be a good way to determine placement, but it is a pretty terrible way to determine placement ability. The only thing that matters is how deep into a law school class a firm will go, and none of that data for Penn suggests that it has any distinct advantage over MVPDN.

Here's a thread that lays out I'm talking about: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 8&start=25

Here's some better data

Vault V5:
Wachtell | UVa: 2 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | UVa: 8, Penn: 25
Sullivan | UVa: 31, Penn: 42
Skadden | UVa: 44, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | UVa: 26, Penn: 27
V5 Total | UVa: 111, Penn: 165
V5 Per Capita| UVa: 0.31, Penn: 0.68

Non-NY Based Elite:
Kirkland (Chi) | UVa: 39, Penn: 30
Latham (NY/LA) | UVa: 72, Penn: 44
Covington (DC) | UVa: 35, Penn: 23
Gibson (LA) | UVa: 34, Penn: 38
Sidley (Chi) | UVa: 48, Penn: 32
Williams & Connoly (DC) | UVa: 30; Penn: 16
Quinn (LA) | UVa: 15, Penn: 9
MoFo (SF) | UVa: 22, Penn: 25
Ropes & Gray (Boston) | UVa: 24, Penn: 28
Wilmerhale (DC) | UVa: 31, Penn: 28
Keker (SF) | UVa: 1, Penn: 1
Irell (LA) | UVa: 1, Penn: 5
"Non-NY" Total | UVa: 352, Penn: 279
"Non-NY" Per Capita | UVa: 0.99, Penn: 1.15

Penn class size: 243
UVa class size: 357

Unfortunately this ignores the very point I'm making by showing raw numbers from firm bios in place of NLJ percentages. It does nothing to explain placement ability any more than NLJ percentages does and is actually subject to even more variables than the NLJ hiring data.

I've compared notes on CB data with people at Mich, Penn, and Cornell and my impression was they're all about the same, despite having widely different placement stats. The reason it's not already compiled on TLS, I assume, is because schools tell us to keep that data to ourselves. Every T14 2L and 3L should have access to that information for their own school though.

Edit: also, I object to V20 NYC being our benchmark for "prestige." I would assume lots of GULC/UVA students would rather work for a lower V100 DC firm than an NYC V10.

This. It's a little frustrating not being able to share this data on TLS, but I (and quite possibly many others) don't want to publicly distribute this information only to be subject to the fallout that may or may not come with that. I'll admit (this is embarrassing) that the competitive side of me has begun drafting posts in several threads breaking down just how similar Michigan and Penn are based on the average offer GPAs I've seen, but I've had to resist the urge to post this information because it's just not worth proving a point on TLS. If you can get your hands on this data from a friend at another school, I think you'll be quite surprised by (1) how similar the average GPAs are at most firms after accounting for different school medians and (2) how mediocre of a metric the NLJ data is for any single student targeting NYC biglaw.

60k is a ton of money. I know it doesn't seem like it to those of you who are deciding on school, but I beg you to understand that it really is.

This may end up being the best post in this entire thread. I've been on TLS since I began my law school application process, and I started paying my loans in November of this year. As someone who has spanned the full TLS "lifecycle", I can vouch that what once almost seemed like monopoly money when deciding between schools is now incredibly real.

[igo2northwestern]

NLJ may be a good way to determine placement, but it is a pretty terrible way to determine placement ability. The only thing that matters is how deep into a law school class a firm will go, and none of that data for Penn suggests that it has any distinct advantage over MVPDN.

Here's a thread that lays out I'm talking about: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 8&start=25

Here's some better data

Vault V5:
Wachtell | UVa: 2 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | UVa: 8, Penn: 25
Sullivan | UVa: 31, Penn: 42
Skadden | UVa: 44, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | UVa: 26, Penn: 27
V5 Total | UVa: 111, Penn: 165
V5 Per Capita| UVa: 0.31, Penn: 0.68

Non-NY Based Elite:
Kirkland (Chi) | UVa: 39, Penn: 30
Latham (NY/LA) | UVa: 72, Penn: 44
Covington (DC) | UVa: 35, Penn: 23
Gibson (LA) | UVa: 34, Penn: 38
Sidley (Chi) | UVa: 48, Penn: 32
Williams & Connoly (DC) | UVa: 30; Penn: 16
Quinn (LA) | UVa: 15, Penn: 9
MoFo (SF) | UVa: 22, Penn: 25
Ropes & Gray (Boston) | UVa: 24, Penn: 28
Wilmerhale (DC) | UVa: 31, Penn: 28
Keker (SF) | UVa: 1, Penn: 1
Irell (LA) | UVa: 1, Penn: 5
"Non-NY" Total | UVa: 352, Penn: 279
"Non-NY" Per Capita | UVa: 0.99, Penn: 1.15

Penn class size: 243
UVa class size: 357

Unfortunately this ignores the very point I'm making by showing raw numbers from firm bios in place of NLJ percentages. It does nothing to explain placement ability any more than NLJ percentages does and is actually subject to even more variables than the NLJ hiring data.

I don't see why placement ability is the only metric for evaluating a law school. Sure, graduates who are able to get firm jobs also go into other fields; but we can make some assumptions about fed clerk %s to account for the fact.

I think what you're asking for is OCI Offer data at these schools, which is nice, but certainly not what is necessary to evaluate a school's advantage in firm jobs. If someone is trying to show that one school has an advantage over another in a specific market, the data I've given should substantially bolster that argument.

[IAFG]

If someone is trying to show that one school has an advantage over another in a specific market, the data I've given should substantially bolster that argument.

It really doesn't. It shows what people do, not what they have the option of doing. There's a gulf between the two things.

[igo2northwestern]

If someone is trying to show that one school has an advantage over another in a specific market, the data I've given should substantially bolster that argument.

It really doesn't. It shows what people do, not what they have the option of doing. There's a gulf between the two things.

I don't think there's a "gulf" between the two things - they're very much interrelated. A firm that has a large Penn footprint I would assume pushes for Penn candidates a bit more. (I asked the question to a few partners - NU alums - whether they gave a little edge to the NU students they saw at callbacks, and nearly all of them said yes.) Also, I think that a firm that continues to see a greater number of Penn students in its office would likely heighten its Penn-related recruiting efforts.

[suralin]

If someone is trying to show that one school has an advantage over another in a specific market, the data I've given should substantially bolster that argument.

It really doesn't. It shows what people do, not what they have the option of doing. There's a gulf between the two things.

It's a pretty simple distinction, and one that I think makes all the difference.

igo2northwestern, do you really think that the two (what people do, and what they can do) can be conflated? If not, how does your data at all address that distinction? Imagine you were trying to write a conclusion for a statistics paper; would your data really support your conclusion?