Top Law Schools

If one has a full or near full scholarship to:

UT-Austin
Vanderbilt
Emory
UCLA

Are these schools able to give you law degree portability (to move across regions) if you graduate from them? Could you work pretty much anywhere with a JD from these four as if you had come from a T14?

And I'm meaning work in any size law, from big law (assuming you had the grades here) to small law (assuming you want that).

Thanks.

Portability is determined by the pre-law school ties of the student, not the reputation of the school. The former determines where you will be competitive for employment beyond the local market of the school, while the latter determines how deeply the average competitive employer will hire into the class.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Portability is determined by the pre-law school ties of the student, not the reputation of the school. The former determines where you will be competitive for employment beyond the local market of the school, while the latter determines how deeply the average competitive employer will hire into the class.

This is a slight overstatement. Some degrees are more portable. Your pre-school ties can greatly increase your chances in a region, but I would say that if you are from the Bay, or DC, you are not going to do very well from Emory.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Portability is determined by the pre-law school ties of the student, not the reputation of the school. The former determines where you will be competitive for employment beyond the local market of the school, while the latter determines how deeply the average competitive employer will hire into the class.

The name and reputation of a school generally only carries within its region, even if you have ties. So if were born and raised and went to undergrad in California, then went to Emory, employers probably wouldn't give you much of a look because they've never met any lawyers from that school and would question your reasons for leaving California. On the other hand, they would almost certainly give you a good look if you went to a California school.

Exceptions exist but going to a non T-14 in a region you have no interest in working is horseshit.

I can only speak for Texas and Vanderbilt. There is nationwide portability assuming you have high enough grades coming out of those schools. But in most circumstances, you better be prepared to work in the region where the school is located.

Even t14's not named Harvard, Yale, and Stanford are not truly as national as much as people on this site think.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Exceptions exist but going to a non T-14 in a region you have no interest in working is horseshit.

People with good grades from ND go everywhere, provided they have ties, so this is not really true. Most people in my class are headed back to the region they're from...and those regions are in the South, Southwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic and West Coast.

ndirish2010 wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Exceptions exist but going to a non T-14 in a region you have no interest in working is horseshit.

People with good grades from ND go everywhere, provided they have ties, so this is not really true. Most people in my class are headed back to the region they're from...and those regions are in the South, Southwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic and West Coast.

how portable is the degree for people who don't have ties? i feel like the lack of ties is an issue even in the t14. to what extent can high grades overcome the "no ties' barrier?

utlaw2007 wrote: There is nationwide portability assuming you have high enough grades coming out of those schools. But in most circumstances, you better be prepared to work in the region where the school is located.

what are "high enough grades"?

idk wrote:

utlaw2007 wrote: There is nationwide portability assuming you have high enough grades coming out of those schools. But in most circumstances, you better be prepared to work in the region where the school is located.

what are "high enough grades"?

Probably high enough for Latin honors, so around top 1/3.

Swimp wrote:

idk wrote:

utlaw2007 wrote: There is nationwide portability assuming you have high enough grades coming out of those schools. But in most circumstances, you better be prepared to work in the region where the school is located.

what are "high enough grades"?

Probably high enough for Latin honors, so around top 1/3.

Maybe that's how it was in 2007, but you are being far too optimistic to say that top 1/3 at Vandy or Texas offers portability to regions that you don't have ties to. Honestly, that is probably too optimistic even in 2007. If you don't want Texas + secondary markets that you have ties to, don't go to Texas. If you don't want Atlanta + secondary markets that you have ties to, don't go to Vanderbilt. That's not to say that you cannot break that mold; it's to say that it is unlikely that you would to the point at which it's not worth taking the gamble.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

Swimp wrote:

idk wrote:

utlaw2007 wrote: There is nationwide portability assuming you have high enough grades coming out of those schools. But in most circumstances, you better be prepared to work in the region where the school is located.

what are "high enough grades"?

Probably high enough for Latin honors, so around top 1/3.

Maybe that's how it was in 2007, but you are being far too optimistic to say that top 1/3 at Vandy or Texas offers portability to regions that you don't have ties to. Honestly, that is probably too optimistic even in 2007. If you don't want Texas + secondary markets that you have ties to, don't go to Texas. If you don't want Atlanta + secondary markets that you have ties to, don't go to Vanderbilt. That's not to say that you cannot break that mold; it's to say that it is unlikely that you would to the point at which it's not worth taking the gamble.

I don't think that's true. I know people in the top 1/3 at UT that are going to Cali and NYC without ties.

ksllaw wrote:If one has a full or near full scholarship to:

UT-Austin
Vanderbilt
Emory
UCLA

Are these schools able to give you law degree portability (to move across regions) if you graduate from them? Could you work pretty much anywhere with a JD from these four as if you had come from a T14?

No. They have less portablility than the T14. That's why the T14 is a separate category.

However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't go to these schools. A full ride to to UT, Vandy, Emory or UCLA is a pretty sweet deal, especially if you or your family can pick up some or all of the living expense. And of course they will have GOOD portability ... just not T14 portability.

utlaw2007 wrote:I can only speak for Texas and Vanderbilt. There is nationwide portability assuming you have high enough grades coming out of those schools. But in most circumstances, you better be prepared to work in the region where the school is located.

Vandy, UCLA, USC, and Tulane grads can work out-of-region, but they usually choose not to.

For its ranking, Tulane places a lot of grads outside of its region...strange! UCLA/USC grads could theoretically work anywhere they desire, but they choose those schools because they overwhelmingly prefer So.Cal. it's not like NY biglaw firms don't know about those schools. Vandy grads will typically work in TN, GA, and - to a lesser degree - NY or D.C., but can work anywhere else in the east. Very few Vandy grads clamor to work in, say, CA.

Those are the only non-T14 exceptions to the region rule (GWU?). Any T14 school below HYS has portability similar to those schools, i.e. you need to prefer the region of the school but you can move out of region if you do very well and hustle in your job search.

The only truly "national" schools are HYS.

What happens to the below median student at TX/Vandy/Emory? What happens to the median student at schools like Cardozo/AU/etc? Given today's legal market, I seriously wonder where all these newly minted JDs end up.

idk wrote:What happens to the below median...at TX/Vandy/Emory? ...median...at schools like Cardozo/AU/etc? Given today's legal market, I seriously wonder where all these newly minted JDs end up.

The former? Employed in rare instances. More often stuck in their schools' markets (if they are employed at all). Often unemployed, broke and in debt up to their eyeballs!

The latter? Most often stuck in their schools' markets (if they are employed at all). Often unemployed, broke and in debt up to their eyeballs!

ksllaw wrote:If one has a full or near full scholarship to:

UT-Austin
Vanderbilt
Emory
UCLA

Are these schools able to give you law degree portability (to move across regions) if you graduate from them? Could you work pretty much anywhere with a JD from these four as if you had come from a T14?

And I'm meaning work in any size law, from big law (assuming you had the grades here) to small law (assuming you want that).

Thanks.

I think the correct answer is "Of course not"

idk wrote:What happens to the below median student at TX/Vandy/Emory? What happens to the median student at schools like Cardozo/AU/etc? Given today's legal market, I seriously wonder where all these newly minted JDs end up.

I don't know anyone at UT. I know some below median Vandy and Emory grads who graduated in May--they are currently unemployed.

What are ties? Are people talking about people who they actually networked with in the legal community prior to going to law school? If so, I'm not so sure many people do that to begin with. Or are we just talking about someone who grew up in that area and/or has family there/went to school there/etc?

True that for pretty much any school other that HYS you need ties to go to another region unless you have very strong grades.

As far as the above schools in terms of portability: Vandy >> UCLA >USC >> Emory.

If you look at placement stats Vandy places nationally in a similar (or greater) dispersion pattern as most T14s (although this may be largely because it is not in a major market, kind of like UMichigan); UCLA and USC place the vast majority of students in CA (although this may be largely self-selection); and Emory places the vast majority in GA as far as I know (more regional than any of these others).

PDaddy wrote:

idk wrote:What happens to the below median...at TX/Vandy/Emory? ...median...at schools like Cardozo/AU/etc? Given today's legal market, I seriously wonder where all these newly minted JDs end up.

The former? Employed in rare instances. More often stuck in their schools' markets (if they are employed at all). Often unemployed, broke and in debt up to their eyeballs!

The latter? Most often stuck in their schools' markets (if they are employed at all). Often unemployed, broke and in debt up to their eyeballs!

I don't think things are quite this grim for the average V or T kid a bit below median, at least in so far as your post implies that is their long-term fate (although admittedly things are grim and this is probably what it typically looks like at time of graduation without job). May be wrong about this, because things are bad but I still think you overstated the situation a bit insofar as it applies to long-term outcomes. See also my previous post.

PDaddy wrote:Any T14 school below HYS has portability similar to those schools, i.e. you need to prefer the region of the school but you can move out of region if you do very well and hustle in your job search.

No.

altoid99 wrote:What are ties?
.....

are we just talking about someone who grew up in that area and/or has family there/went to school there/etc?

Yes

Nova wrote:

altoid99 wrote:What are ties?
.....

are we just talking about someone who grew up in that area and/or has family there/went to school there/etc?

Yes

Yes and no. Ties are more a spectrum (with a combination of how strong your actual ties are with how well you sell the ties you have in showing how you really want to stay in that area). And how finicky firms are will depend on the market. To relate to the market I know, Texas: I noticed Austin firms are looking for people who are in love with Austin. That doesn't necessarily mean you spent your whole life in Austin--undergrad or law school might be sufficient by itself. But they want people who will take "less cutting edge work" for the opportunity to be in Austin and who want to live there long term. Dallas is a little different. I think a lot of Dallas firms look for substantial ties to Dallas--people who grew up there and have family there. Outsiders are viewed with suspicion. Houston firms can be a whole different story--on the whole firms are typically much more open to outsiders and people who have never even lived in Houston before. The strength of your ties and how well you sell yourself to firms in the three cities is going to have a decent amount of variation. (Examples: An aunt and uncle who live in Houston might sell a lot better to a Houston firm than to a Dallas or Austin firm. An expressed love for Dallas with only having gone to UG there might be looked on more suspiciously than an expressed love for Austin with going to UG at UT. And so on.)