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LSAT 168, LSDAS GPA 4.01 (4.0)

I also have a military soft and a few years full-time work experience (while going to school full-time). Parents didn't finish four year degrees (but two of my grandparents did). The only detriments are that my undergraduate is an unheard-of liberal arts public university and my major is Criminal Justice.

I am throwing applications at the whole T14. However, if I don't get into a T14, I refuse to pay sticker. Which schools should I be looking at for potential full-ride scholarships? How far above the median should I be to be considered for a full-ride?

I live in MN, so I was checking out William Mitchell (3.16-3.62, 150-159). I read that 1% of 1,000 students, so about 10, are on a full ride. Would I be competitive here?

TripTrip wrote:LSAT 168, LSDAS GPA 4.01 (4.0)

I also have a military soft and a few years full-time work experience (while going to school full-time). Parents didn't finish four year degrees (but two of my grandparents did). The only detriments are that my undergraduate is an unheard-of liberal arts public university and my major is Criminal Justice.

I am throwing applications at the whole T14. However, if I don't get into a T14, I refuse to pay sticker. Which schools should I be looking at for potential full-ride scholarships? How far above the median should I be to be considered for a full-ride?

I live in MN, so I was checking out William Mitchell (3.16-3.62, 150-159). I read that 1% of 1,000 students, so about 10, are on a full ride. Would I be competitive here?

With your numbers it might be better to see UMN as your backup. I'm not sure if you can get them to give you a full ride, but with a 168/4.01 you would definitely be in the running I think. As far as lower cost options go, UMN would be vastly preferable to WM.

That said, have you considered retaking the LSAT? You're so close to being a lock at many great T14 schools and you would be pretty much be guaranteed money at them if you boost that LSAT a touch.

You have a great shot at most of the bottom T-14 and some T-10s. You will get a few bites. WUSTL would probably give a full ride, UMN would give something close to it.

Thanks for the replies. While I didn't take any prep classes, I did give the LSAT my all. Since I took it in February, it would take a while for me to get back in the LSAT game. I'd end up taking the February LSAT which would set me back a year for applying. That's not the route I want to take.

I was also planning on applying to UMN, like PinkCow mentioned. I wasn't sure how competitive I would be for a scholarship there.

Also, can I expect to have my application fee waived at non-T14 schools? I know UMN will waive, but others?

Schools that give pretty decent fin aid are the ones competing in the 20-25 spot.

BC, BU, GW, Fordham are probably the only schools in that range that place significantly in biglaw. They also have been known to give out good financial aid packages.

Looking at the Minnesota threads, I would only go to Minn if you get in state, which might be cheaper than your other options, but you'd probably have to give up any dreams of biglaw. Read through this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=146346

You'll probably get into Penn - Georgetown. And you have an OK chance at Chicago and NYU. I would retake if I were you though. If you could get 170+, you would be looking at some real good money in the T14 and, if high enough, some HYS acceptances. That GPA is amazing and your military experience and work experience probably gives you above average softs. Additionally, your UG institution and major matter little to not at all. Retake and kill it!

Don't pay sticker if not HYS. $200+ debt is simply not worth it. The legal market is brutal right now, and there are no signs of improvement. Seriously evaluate where you want to practice. If Minn, then UMN would be a great low-cost option. Do not pay exorbitant amounts to attend schools without connections to the areas you want to practice. Employers will not be impressed that you went to a school with a fancy name and didn't make great grades. Because predicting grades is so difficult, hedge your bets on the one thing you can control: debt.

So long as the school you choose is decent, other factors matter more when landing a job i.e.: great grades and ties. Think: reasonable debt, ties, then work hard and pray for great grades.

Just a question - I've noticed that TLS tends to push for LSAT retakes. In my case, I'm guessing it's because my GPA and LSAT don't quite match. But is it really the case that everyone here took it twice?

The LSAT friggen sucked. It's not something I could walk right into and "kill." Like I mentioned, I work full-time and I go to school full-time. I don't have time to study for the LSAT hardcore, and if I did I'd probably risk getting a B (or A-) in one of my classes and breaking my 4.0 GPA.

IMO, the retake consensus is generally correct because (1) the LSAT is a learnable test and (2)significant financial returns on a higher score -- both in schollys and your increased likelihood to land biglaw by ascending the t-14 ladder.

HOWEVER, I don't think the marginal score change does that much in your situation, especially if you're not sure you can devote the requisite time to consistently PTing in the 170s. http://myLSN.info/dispresults.php?sk=vh862 shows that you are only barred from t4 because of your lsat. You've got great chances at bottom 14, and toss up at 5-11.

Unless you're willing to change your lifestyle for the dream of attending HYS, don't retake.

I go to UMN and can say with certainty you are looking at close to a full ride, if not a full ride, if you are admitted. My friend who is 3.8/167 got a full ride.

Forget WM, lol.

With a couple more points on your LSAT, you're looking at possible full ride options in the T14.

TripTrip wrote:Just a question - I've noticed that TLS tends to push for LSAT retakes. In my case, I'm guessing it's because my GPA and LSAT don't quite match. But is it really the case that everyone here took it twice?

The LSAT friggen sucked. It's not something I could walk right into and "kill." Like I mentioned, I work full-time and I go to school full-time. I don't have time to study for the LSAT hardcore, and if I did I'd probably risk getting a B (or A-) in one of my classes and breaking my 4.0 GPA.

I'm not going to give any advice on whether or not to retake, but say you pull a B or an A- in a class, and your GPA drops to 3.97 or something. The difference between a 4.0 and a 3.97 is really not a whole lot, whereas the difference between a 168 and a 172 LSAT is significant. Although the relative weight varies from school to school, no school weights your GPA more, and many schools give your LSAT 3 or 4 (or more) times the weight of your entire undergrad GPA. Food for thought.

One of my friends at UMN got a full ride with the same LSAT and nearly the same GPA. Forget about applying to WM.

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:IMO, the retake consensus is generally correct because (1) the LSAT is a learnable test and (2)significant financial returns on a higher score -- both in schollys and your increased likelihood to land biglaw by ascending the t-14 ladder.

HOWEVER, I don't think the marginal score change does that much in your situation, especially if you're not sure you can devote the requisite time to consistently PTing in the 170s. http://myLSN.info/dispresults.php?sk=vh862 shows that you are only barred from t4 because of your lsat. You've got great chances at bottom 14, and toss up at 5-11.

Unless you're willing to change your lifestyle for the dream of attending HYS, don't retake.

Thanks for the advice.

I will definitely be applying to UMN. I know it sounds strange, but WM is held in higher regard by a lot of people around here than UMN. I know that doesn't make any sense since it's sub-tier-3 versus tier-1, but it's probably because WM is private and the campus is significantly nicer.

TripTrip wrote: I will definitely be applying to UMN. I know it sounds strange, but WM is held in higher regard by a lot of people around here than UMN. I know that doesn't make any sense since it's sub-tier-3 versus tier-1, but it's probably because WM is private and the campus is significantly nicer.

LOL

Legal employers know there is a huge difference. Thats what matters.

Nova wrote:

TripTrip wrote: I will definitely be applying to UMN. I know it sounds strange, but WM is held in higher regard by a lot of people around here than UMN. I know that doesn't make any sense since it's sub-tier-3 versus tier-1, but it's probably because WM is private and the campus is significantly nicer.

LOL

Legal employers know there is a huge difference. Thats what matters.

Tell those people you are applying to Princeton Law, WM will seem far less prestigious at that point.

William and Mary Law is totes prestigious.

HBBJohnStamos wrote:William and Mary Law is totes prestigious.

Not sure how many layers of joking are meant here.

Nova wrote:

HBBJohnStamos wrote:William and Mary Law is totes prestigious.

Not sure how many layers of joking are meant here.

I lol'd when I saw the first one, and then lol'd again.

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:IMO, the retake consensus is generally correct because (1) the LSAT is a learnable test and (2)significant financial returns on a higher score -- both in schollys and your increased likelihood to land biglaw by ascending the t-14 ladder.

HOWEVER, I don't think the marginal score change does that much in your situation, especially if you're not sure you can devote the requisite time to consistently PTing in the 170s. http://myLSN.info/dispresults.php?sk=vh862 shows that you are only barred from t4 because of your lsat. You've got great chances at bottom 14, and toss up at 5-11.

Unless you're willing to change your lifestyle for the dream of attending HYS, don't retake.

This is absolutely terrible advice. A couple more points on the LSAT, and OP could get ~$100k+ in scholarships at a T14. Retaking is not just about gaining admission to one or two other schools - it's about saving yourself from crippling debt. Looking at only admissions prospects and not at the huge financial commitment is foolish at best and life-ruining at worst.

TripTrip - you're doing yourself a HUGE disservice by not retaking the LSAT. If you didn't put time into studying and got a 168, taking a month to buckle down and increase your score just a couple points is the absolute best decision you can make. And I don't buy that you "don't have time." Study on the weekends or over Christmas break for the February test, or take a year off after undergrad (which is a smart idea anyway) to raise your score before applying. That way you also won't have to worry about a GPA drop.

Dany wrote:

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:IMO, the retake consensus is generally correct because (1) the LSAT is a learnable test and (2)significant financial returns on a higher score -- both in schollys and your increased likelihood to land biglaw by ascending the t-14 ladder.

HOWEVER, I don't think the marginal score change does that much in your situation, especially if you're not sure you can devote the requisite time to consistently PTing in the 170s. http://myLSN.info/dispresults.php?sk=vh862 shows that you are only barred from t4 because of your lsat. You've got great chances at bottom 14, and toss up at 5-11.

Unless you're willing to change your lifestyle for the dream of attending HYS, don't retake.

This is absolutely terrible advice. A couple more points on the LSAT, and OP could get ~$100k+ in scholarships at a T14. Retaking is not just about gaining admission to one or two other schools - it's about saving yourself from crippling debt. Looking at only admissions prospects and not at the huge financial commitment is foolish at best and life-ruining at worst.

TripTrip - you're doing yourself a HUGE disservice by not retaking the LSAT. If you didn't put time into studying and got a 168, taking a month to buckle down and increase your score just a couple points is the absolute best decision you can make. And I don't buy that you "don't have time." Study on the weekends or over Christmas break for the February test, or take a year off after undergrad (which is a smart idea anyway) to raise your score before applying. That way you also won't have to worry about a GPA drop.

Ok, I'll bite.

1. OP says: "I am throwing applications at the whole T14. However, if I don't get into a T14, I refuse to pay sticker." So, OP is willing to pay sticker within the t-14.

2. OP said "I gave the LSAT my all." But you somehow construed that to mean "If you didn't put time into studying and got a 168, taking a month to buckle down and increase your score just a couple points is the absolute best decision you can make." Probably the WORST thing OP can do is retake after 4 weeks of weekend studying and get a 165. But, good advice Dany!

3. Also, OP is set on applying to UMN. From the stats found in my earlier link, 83% of admits received on average just under 100k (UMN is 37k in-state).

4. In the most probable scenario, OP will try to use his/her UMN scholly to leverage some dough from MVP.

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote: 4. In the most probable scenario, OP will try to use his/her UMN scholly to leverage some dough from MVP.

That doesn't really work. There is a huge gap between UMN and MVP. Someone with slightly better numbers might get big bucks from MVP, but you're probably not going to be able to negotiate meaningfully between UMN and MVP.

A friend of a friend of mine was planning on going to Georgetown before getting a full-ride to UMN. That kinda makes me think that this person did not get into other T-14s/ had an index below yours.

hibiki wrote:

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote: 4. In the most probable scenario, OP will try to use his/her UMN scholly to leverage some dough from MVP.

That doesn't really work. There is a huge gap between UMN and MVP. Someone with slightly better numbers might get big bucks from MVP, but you're probably not going to be able to negotiate meaningfully between UMN and MVP.

86% of admits [Edit: with similar numbers to OP] at Mich received on average 35k. I'm not saying OP will get MVP at half price. I'm just saying it will probably be cheaper than sticker.

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:1. OP says: "I am throwing applications at the whole T14. However, if I don't get into a T14, I refuse to pay sticker." So, OP is willing to pay sticker within the t-14.

2. OP said "I gave the LSAT my all." But you somehow construed that to mean "If you didn't put time into studying and got a 168, taking a month to buckle down and increase your score just a couple points is the absolute best decision you can make." Probably the WORST thing OP can do is retake after 4 weeks of weekend studying and get a 165. But, good advice Dany!

3. Also, OP is set on applying to UMN. From the stats found in my earlier link, 83% of admits received on average just under 100k (UMN is 37k in-state).

4. In the most probable scenario, OP will try to use his/her UMN scholly to leverage some dough from MVP.

1. Just because someone is willing to do something doesn't mean it's not a TERRIBLE IDEA.

2. Wrong. Schools take your highest score. Also, in case I wasn't clear: I meant those comments separately. If OP takes a year off, surely they can find ONE MONTH to study a ton. If OP doesn't take a year off, then studying on the weekends and over breaks can surely give them enough practice to at least try.

3. So? Retaking doesn't harm this scenario at all. If OP wants to go to UMN and work in Minnesota, that's fine. But OP should at least realize that making a retake work can open up options like HUGE scholarships at CCN on down, which at equal cost are certainly better decisions than UMN.

4. lol