. Forum

[The Duck]

Indeed it is. It's really not that complicated.

The Duck, why does this bother you so much? No one is saying Michigan sucks balls. We are just saying that Penn>Michigan at anywhere near equal cost. Any unbiased person would agree.

No they wouldn't. That's my point. For some situations, sure. But not for every situation and so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

I cannot think of any within the realm of employment, and honestly, that is pretty much all that matters at this level.

Whatever man, I'm done. You obviously are just trolling...or you're an idiot.

[Aberzombie1892]

You know, personal attacks are what people resort to once they realize that they were wrong.

[flem]

This objection is along the lines of "but some people get biglaw out of TTT schools". It's a fucking pedantic and obvious distinction that doesn't need to be mentioned and it's just an opportunity for people to white knight their alma mater.

[indigomachine]

CCNM? Jk. Voting Penn.

Mich is a great school that places its fair share into biglaw, but I'd feel a lot better locking myself into Penn's current placement if I were ED'ing / taking into account the likelihood of paying sticker with borderline #'s.

[mr.hands]

Indeed it is. It's really not that complicated (in response to Mr. hands).

The Duck, why does this bother you so much? No one is saying Michigan sucks balls. We are just saying that Penn>Michigan at anywhere near equal cost. Any unbiased person would agree.

I'm unbiased. I don't go to either of these schools and I take issue with this statement. If you want BigLaw, sure. Michigan's LRAP, though, gives you a ton of flexibility. So if you're paying sticker, it's still manageable.

I have a problem with what you're saying because you aren't just claiming "Penn is better for Biglaw" or something similar.

It's just stupid to say that Penn is always better than michigan "at anywhere near equal cost"

[indigomachine]

Indeed it is. It's really not that complicated (in response to Mr. hands).

The Duck, why does this bother you so much? No one is saying Michigan sucks balls. We are just saying that Penn>Michigan at anywhere near equal cost. Any unbiased person would agree.

I'm unbiased. I don't go to either of these schools and I take issue with this statement. If you want BigLaw, sure. Michigan's LRAP, though, gives you a ton of flexibility. So if you're paying sticker, it's still manageable.

I have a problem with what you're saying because you aren't just claiming "Penn is better for Biglaw" or something similar.

It's just stupid to say that Penn is always better than michigan "at anywhere near equal cost"

Does either school place better in permanent, LRAP eligible positions? If either one does place better in those positions, are we talking relevant numbers of people placing in those fields or just "small group of people #1 is slightly larger than slightly smaller group of people #2").

Outside of that, it's been hard to gauge (at least from my perspective anyways) which of those two routes (biglaw or PI) is actually harder to land, but I get the feeling PI seems a bit more difficult due to the fact that it got hit especially hard by ITE and the getting those positions is generally less formulaic than biglaw's school+GPA+fit = result type stuff (maybe that just means "different" not more difficult; idk).

If OP is open to all fields, and Mich has a gap of placement power in permanent LRAP eligible employment that is equal to (or close to) Penn's comparative placement power in biglaw, then I can see an argument for M = P. With no preference between PI or biglaw, don't see how M > P, and if biglaw is generally easier to get than permanent LRAP eligible PI and the OP has no preferences-->P>M

Idk, to me uncertainty of PI market in general combined with Penn's generally strong showing in biglaw (including compared to Michigan) and OP's general openness to all fields of legal employment would lead me to vote Penn on this one, barring more information.

(Also, I don't go to either school and have no rejections from either one to get butt-hurt over)

[Pathika]

I know that nobody likes to go there, but it is worth noting that Michigan is usually around 20% minority and Penn is usually over 30%. This can have an influence on BigLaw placement.

E.g. This year Michigan is just over 20% while Penn is about 35%.

Of note: Howard (TTT/119) places 10.8% into large law firms, American (49) places 8.1%... both are in DC.

ETA: Massive fail.

[UnamSanctam]

Subtle "lock this thread" move. Pro strategy, wouldn't see that outside the box thinking from a Penn student.

[Tiago Splitter]

Subtle "lock this thread" move. Pro strategy, wouldn't see that outside the box thinking from a Penn student.

With a comment that Cardozo is in DC to throw people off the scent. Well played.

[Aberzombie1892]

I know that nobody likes to go there, but it is worth noting that Michigan is usually around 20% minority and Penn is usually over 30%. This can have an influence on BigLaw placement.

E.g. This year Michigan is just over 20% while Penn is about 35%.

Of note: Howard (TTT/119) places 10.8% into large law firms, Cardozo (49) places 8.1%... both are in DC.

Howard is the exception, not the rule. All of the other HBCU law schools place terribly.

Regardless, most good, but not great, law schools place between 5-20% of their class in big law. From Villanova (T3) to Minnesota (19, I think). It doesn't really show anything of value.

[utlaw2007]

I wanted to chime in on this thread. And being a Wolverine, that is my alma mater, I have to speak up in defense of those who attend Michigan Law.

I have no idea of how well each school places other than what I have read on this post. But to say that New York should always be a consideration if one wants to pay down law school debt in this economy is absurd. I went to Texas Law. Our student body is composed of 65% Texas residents. It used to be composed of 80% Texas residents. I am one of those Texas residents. I was born and raised in Texas, but went to Michigan for undergrad. But I must be one of those dumb people because I never considered biglaw in New York. I never considered biglaw anywhere because I despised the biglaw environment. Plus, I am a trial lawyer. I have to be in the courtroom and I crave it. Do people who go biglaw ever even see a courtroom?

The huge mistake you are making is that you are assuming that everyone has similar biglaw interest in New York as you do. I can tell you that here in Texas, we are extremely averse to being in New York or anywhere on the east coast as much as some people are averse to living in Texas. Texas has low cost of living. That in itself greatly offsets any financial gains from New York employment. We have biglaw down here in Texas that pays the national biglaw market rate. Lots of them, so most of our graduates never want to leave the state. But non biglaw firms pay an amount that coupled with our low cost of living makes for a very nice way of life. Hence, that's why most Texas grads don't have a biglaw or bust mentality that you see on this website.

People on this website greatly underestimate the idea of self selection. They assume that everyone has the same interest that they do concerning biglaw or location. If biglaw in New York was the only legal option I had and it was automatic for me, I would have chosen another profession to avoid living in New York. So Michigan peeps, I feel you. Basically, I understand what you are saying from a conceptual standpoint.

[iMisto]

Uhh, I think they're saying, due to the fact that the legal market is so shiTTTy, NYC has to at least be an option for somebody willing to pay sticker at P/M, since an ED would most likely put you in that situation. Given that, Penn places better in NYC, making it a safer, if not better choice.

People can self-select all they want, but in this economy, I doubt people at/below median at the T14 can afford not to take NYC into consideration.

[utlaw2007]

Uhh, I think they're saying, due to the fact that the legal market is so shiTTTy, NYC has to at least be an option for somebody willing to pay sticker at P/M, since an ED would most likely put you in that situation. Given that, Penn places better in NYC, making it a safer, if not better choice.

I understand what they are saying. That's why I qualified my statement by saying the Michigan people's argument is conceptually similar to mine about Texas. People from the midwest or those who attend Michigan Law can be just as New York averse as someone from Texas. There's no law that says otherwise.

You guys argue as though you are young and immature. There's all sorts of reasons why someone may not find a location at all tolerable and therefore, not an option no matter what. It's not always about money. To a large degree, it is. But there are other factors that influence someone's quality of life.

[Tiago Splitter]

I understand what they are saying. I'm not stupid. That's why I qualified my statement by saying the Michigan people's argument is conceptually similar to mine about Texas. People from the midwest or those who attend Michigan Law may be just as New York averse as someone from Texas.

You guys argue as though you are young and immature. There's all sorts of reasons why someone may not find a location at all tolerable and therefore, not an option no matter what. It's not always about money. To a large degree, it is. But there are other factors that influence someone's quality of life.

I'm not sure you really do understand what we are saying. The point is that someone unwilling to work in New York needs to be extra concerned about debt because so many BigLaw jobs are located there. If an individual isn't willing to work in New York (or wants small firm work, etc.) they should focus more on scholarships and limiting debt, and an ED application does the exact opposite of that. There are plenty of good reasons to never want to live or work in New York City, but if that's your plan then the question isn't whether to ED Penn or Michigan but whether or not to apply ED at all.

[utlaw2007]

Also, if we are talking about economy and money to be made, your logic says that someone would be stupid not to consider Texas as a possibility geographically. Our economy is way the hell better than New York's. Our legal economy is not as robust, but it is close. When you factor in our cost of living, it comes out ahead. But many people don't want to make that decision because of other considerations about living in Texas. Why is New York so different that people can't the have the same apprehensions about New York?

Fair point about EDing. I haven't read these posts in their entirety, just bits and pieces. But my above point still stands if one should assume financial considerations of geography.

[keg411]

For what it's worth: I'd be willing to bet serious money that for the c/o 2013, the number for BigLaw at Michigan will be well over the 35% for c/o 2011, and will probably be pretty freakin' similar to Penn's numbers.

Heck, even if you comb over Michigan's employment outcomes with a fine-tooth comb (which you can, since every job is posted on the website), Michigan did a FAR better job getting people decent employment through their post-grad fellowship program than Penn did with theirs. Considering how difficult it is to get FedGov jobs, the placement in that respect is spectacular; especially when you compare it with Penn's "strike out" outcomes.

However, if OP is from the northeast and wants to stay in the area, I'd say Penn is the better choice, just because it will be more comfortable. A2 can be (although isn't always) a difficult adjustment if you're not from the midwest and it's definitely not as fun as Philadelphia (and isn't much cheaper).

[utlaw2007]

However, if OP is from the northeast and wants to stay in the area, I'd say Penn is the better choice, just because it will be more comfortable. A2 can be (although isn't always) a difficult adjustment if you're not from the midwest and it's definitely not as fun as Philadelphia (and isn't much cheaper).

I'd have to agree with that sentiment. While I loved my undergraduate stay at Michigan, I did not adjust well to Ann Arbor being from Houston, Texas.

[JamMasterJ]

1. Texas is a different country. No one's talking about Texas. (joking... sort of)
2. People from other regions who attend any school other than UT are not able to get jobs in Texas.
3. The point of the argument is what an objective person (concerned primarily with paying off loans ITE) would do. People who are unwilling to live in NY are not objective, or even rational if they're willing to pay sticker for a law school education anywhere except HYS.

[utlaw2007]

1. Texas is a different country. No one's talking about Texas. (joking... sort of)
2. People from other regions who attend any school other than UT are not able to get jobs in Texas.
3. The point of the argument is what an objective person (concerned primarily with paying off loans ITE) would do. People who are unwilling to live in NY are not objective, or even rational if they're willing to pay sticker for a law school education anywhere except HYS.

Fair points. Agreed.

[Bronte]

The anti-Michigan trolling recently has gotten out of hand. It can almost certainly be attributed to the fact that Michigan dropped one notch on USNews and dropped on the most recent NLJ250 ranking. But small movements up and down in these rankings happen every year and can be attributed to random variation. The fact is that the data just are not granular or abundant enough to distinguish between schools like Michigan and Penn.

[AreJay711]

1. Texas is a different country. No one's talking about Texas. (joking... sort of)
2. People from other regions who attend any school other than UT are not able to get jobs in Texas.
3. The point of the argument is what an objective person (concerned primarily with paying off loans ITE) would do. People who are unwilling to live in NY are not objective, or even rational if they're willing to pay sticker for a law school education anywhere except HYS.

Fair points. Agreed.

I know a few people that disprove #2 from UM. That doesn't change what people have generally said but based on them and my own experience UM is better for non-east coast than Penn.

[utlaw2007]

1. Texas is a different country. No one's talking about Texas. (joking... sort of)
2. People from other regions who attend any school other than UT are not able to get jobs in Texas.
3. The point of the argument is what an objective person (concerned primarily with paying off loans ITE) would do. People who are unwilling to live in NY are not objective, or even rational if they're willing to pay sticker for a law school education anywhere except HYS.

Fair points. Agreed.

I know a few people that disprove #2 from UM. That doesn't change what people have generally said but based on them and my own experience UM is better for non-east coast than Penn.

To tell you the truth, there are quite a few T14 grads that get biglaw jobs here in Texas. Most of the grads I have seen are T10 grads. The difference I have seen is that these grads are able to get jobs with biglaw firms that are based outside of Texas but have locations here, Susman, Sidley, Jones Day etc.. Or, they are able to get jobs with the very largest Texas based firms, Fulbright, V & E, Baker Botts, etc... However, we have a ton of law firms that pay biglaw market rate that have locations only in Texas and literally a couple of other states, Jackson Walker, Thompson & Knight, etc. Those firms don't hire anyone else other than Texas grads for the most part. For example, Jackson Walker pays market rate, but they rarely hire anyone who doesn't go to UT Law. The Texas based firms mostly hire Texas grads. For instance, Locke Lord hires almost exclusively Texas grads. They are a Texas based international law firm. The other firms with locations here hire a mix of Texas grads and other grads. But even still, it seems they hire mostly Texas grads for their Texas locations.

But I understood the general sentiment of what you were trying to say. That's why I agreed with it.

[guinness1547]

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[moonman157]

OP here. For what it's worth I would love to attend either school. I did end up applying ED to Penn though. Like I said, with taking out such a large amount of debt, my primary concern is paying it off first.

I appreciate all the advice offered!

Good decision, best of luck!

[Aberzombie1892]

OP here. For what it's worth I would love to attend either school. I did end up applying ED to Penn though. Like I said, with taking out such a large amount of debt, my primary concern is paying it off first.

I appreciate all the advice offered!

Congrats! You made the right choice for your goals (big law).