Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015) Forum

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:43 am

We have yet to see what the affect is on schools who traditionally have LSAT medians above 170, which is where the biggest drop percentage wise in applicants took place this past cycle. Something's gotta budge. With Vandy dropping enrollment 10%, I think we'll see a lot of schools in the T14 doing similar things.

Dr. Filth · Post by **Dr. Filth** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:46 am

Hey OP, can you add the medians to the OP?

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:24 am

I was actually thinking that class size numbers from c/o 2013 would actually be useful to see any trends. Some schools may drop a lot this year, but if you combine the two year trend, it can be as much as 40-50% as opposed to just 20% this year.

Wakelaw15 · Post by **Wakelaw15** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:25 am

Dr. Filth wrote:Hey OP, can you add the medians to the OP?

I don't have any medians, even for WFU, yet, but anything posted in this thread I will make a part of the original post so it's easy to see.

TheRedMamba · Post by **TheRedMamba** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:31 pm

no mention of medians at CLS orientation this past week

Nova · Post by **Nova** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:45 pm

Dr. Filth wrote:Hey OP, can you add the medians to the OP?

For reference, here are the C/O 2014 medians http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=163250

KevinP · Post by **KevinP** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:38 pm

Medians of 4 schools have been released so far:

Format:
School Name (U.S. News Rank): LSAT Median (change), GPA Median (change), Class Size (change)
Vandy (#16): 169 (0), 3.7 (-.03), 173 (-20 , -10.4%)
UC Davis (#29): 163 (-1), 3.6 (-.03), 191 (-1, -0.52%)
University of Georgia (#34): 164 (-1), 3.67 (+.08), 189 (-36, -16%)
George Mason (#39): 163 (-1), 3.7 (-.02), 147 (-39, -20.98%)

VUSisterRayVU · Post by **VUSisterRayVU** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:01 pm

KevinP wrote:Medians of 4 schools have been released so far:

Format:
School Name (U.S. News Rank): LSAT Median (change), GPA Median (change), Class Size (change)
Vandy (#16): 169 (0), 3.7 (-.03), 173 (-20 , -10.4%)
UC Davis (#29): 163 (-1), 3.6 (-.03), 191 (-1, -0.52%)
University of Georgia (#34): 164 (-1), 3.67 (+.08), 189 (-36, -16%)
George Mason (#39): 163 (-1), 3.7 (-.02), 147 (-39, -20.98%)

When are they released if they're not disclosed at orientation? When can we see 25%/75% splits?

Wakelaw15 · Post by **Wakelaw15** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:52 pm

VUSisterRayVU wrote:
KevinP wrote:Medians of 4 schools have been released so far:

Format:
School Name (U.S. News Rank): LSAT Median (change), GPA Median (change), Class Size (change)
Vandy (#16): 169 (0), 3.7 (-.03), 173 (-20 , -10.4%)
UC Davis (#29): 163 (-1), 3.6 (-.03), 191 (-1, -0.52%)
University of Georgia (#34): 164 (-1), 3.67 (+.08), 189 (-36, -16%)
George Mason (#39): 163 (-1), 3.7 (-.02), 147 (-39, -20.98%)
When are they released if they're not disclosed at orientation? When can we see 25%/75% splits?

Who knows when these will be released. A number of T14 schools didn't even release job information for class of 2011 until more than a year after they graduated.

KevinP · Post by **KevinP** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:14 pm

VUSisterRayVU wrote: When are they released if they're not disclosed at orientation? When can we see 25%/75% splits?

The answer is school-dependent. Many schools will release these data within the next few weeks, unless this year is an anomaly, on their websites. The new U.S. News magazine (released in April, I believe) will contain the medians and splits of all schools. Unfortunately the schools, except for Vandy, that I've posted have released only the medians and not the splits.

VUSisterRayVU · Post by **VUSisterRayVU** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:30 pm

KevinP wrote:
VUSisterRayVU wrote: When are they released if they're not disclosed at orientation? When can we see 25%/75% splits?
The answer is school-dependent. Many schools will release these data within the next few weeks, unless this year is an anomaly, on their websites. The new U.S. News magazine (released in April, I believe) will contain the medians and splits of all schools. Unfortunately the schools, except for Vandy, that I've posted have released only the medians and not the splits.

True. By April, the info is late for ED. But if we can get an idea for some of the medians and 25/75 for the T14, it'd be a big help to the planning and stuff. Here's to hoping!

Nova · Post by **Nova** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:41 pm

Even January is late RD.

25/75 are nice, but medians are where the money is at.

KevinP · Post by **KevinP** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:12 pm

VUSisterRayVU wrote: True. By April, the info is late for ED. But if we can get an idea for some of the medians and 25/75 for the T14, it'd be a big help to the planning and stuff. Here's to hoping!

Makes me think that some schools who had substantial declines might delay releasing their new medians. With another decline in June test takers, I honestly would recommend that you do not ED unless you have a really good reason for doing so.

VUSisterRayVU · Post by **VUSisterRayVU** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:19 am

KevinP wrote:
VUSisterRayVU wrote: True. By April, the info is late for ED. But if we can get an idea for some of the medians and 25/75 for the T14, it'd be a big help to the planning and stuff. Here's to hoping!
Makes me think that some schools who had substantial declines might delay releasing their new medians. With another decline in June test takers, I honestly would recommend that you do not ED unless you have a really good reason for doing so.

Splitter, big reach if I can score well enough although the question becomes is it really worth it to trade up a couple spots if I can RD and maybe get money somewhere else. But I'm a risk averse loser... and I need to score well enough. Not worrying about ED/RD strategy yet.

hung jury · Post by **hung jury** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:17 pm

Given the volatility in test takers/applicants I wouldn't make many application decisions based upon C/O 2015 medians. The June test usually correlates pretty well with autumn test but until the # of takers is released neither the schools nor applicants will really know how this cycle will compare to c/o 2015.

Feb+June decreases, coupled with the lag effect (the decreases in applicants who apply more than a year since their last exam are just now being felt), are probably enough to suggest a downward trend in applicants, but I'd be wary of committing to a school early in the cycle if I were applying this year.

Paul Campos · Post by **Paul Campos** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:31 pm

GW is apparently at 400, down from 474.

Pathika · Post by **Pathika** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Michigan

Medians have not yet been released, but according to the online school directory, there are 340 1Ls for the class of 2015.

2013 - 376
2014 - 359 (-17) (-4.5%)
2015 - 340 (-19) (-5.3%)

Aggregate reduction in size from 2013 to 2015 = 9.6%.

TBF: These numbers are as of last week, so the numbers could change up or down due to late withdrawals/late waitlist offers, but I think if that does happen, it'll be minor fluctuations (i.e. +/- 2).

justonemoregame · Post by **justonemoregame** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:10 am

thelawyler wrote:I was actually thinking that class size numbers from c/o 2013 would actually be useful to see any trends. Some schools may drop a lot this year, but if you combine the two year trend, it can be as much as 40-50% as opposed to just 20% this year.

Re-posting a link to LST's data, which shows complete profiles for c/o 2013 and c/o 2014

--LinkRemoved--

It will be interesting to see how far TTTTs let their numbers drop to take people's money. It's not like a drop in ranking will hurt Florida Coastal or John Marshall or Phoenix, who signed up about 2,000 students (combined) for c/o 2014.

geary86 · Post by **geary86** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:57 am

Notre Dame's numbers are out!

Class Size: 178 (-5, 183)
GPA: 3.43(-0.02) 3.66(+0.02) 3.80(+0.06)
LSAT: 161(-1) 166(0) 167(0)

dissonance1848 · Post by **dissonance1848** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:09 am

I fucking hate this! So, schools reduce class sizes, making it hard to get into top schools. They then raise tuition a ton on 1Ls, who have even more debt, and increase the number of transfers, so as to dilute the pool of students, thereby creating no positve change for students who came as 1Ls for employment. What a sham!

Looks like the 2011-2012 cycle was the least competitve we'll ever see, that really blows.

top30man · Post by **top30man** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:13 am

dissonance1848 wrote:I fucking hate this! So, schools reduce class sizes, making it hard to get into top schools. They then raise tuition a ton on 1Ls, who have even more debt, and increase the number of transfers, so as to dilute the pool of students, thereby creating no positve change for students who came as 1Ls for employment. What a sham!

Looks like the 2011-2012 cycle was the least competitve we'll ever see, that really blows.

I don't think so. As long as LSAT takings decline the trend will continue.

dingbat · Post by **dingbat** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:15 am

Fordham's incoming full-time class has 371 students
I'll add details as it comes in

otnemem · Post by **otnemem** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:18 am

Columbia hasn't released numbers, however there are 369 1Ls listed in the student directory. C/O 2014 had a class size of 406, so at least for the moment in looks like a ~9% decrease.

dissonance1848 · Post by **dissonance1848** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:24 am

What do you mean Top30man? Look at the numbers. The declines in enrollment are offsetting the declines in test takers. Unless the number of test takers declines in the fall (and by more than 10%), it looks like this cycle will be just like 2010-2011, perhaps more competitive. Last year was the year to apply to law school. Damnit.

top30man · Post by **top30man** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:29 am

dissonance1848 wrote:What do you mean Top30man? Look at the numbers. The declines in enrollment are offsetting the declines in test takers. Unless the number of test takers declines in the fall (and by more than 10%), it looks like this cycle will be just like 2010-2011, perhaps more competitive. Last year was the year to apply to law school. Damnit.

The point is schools would rather not lose enrollment because it's a precious revenue stream. They want to maintain that while maintaining medians at all costs. That likely means more money to qualified candidates, lower Gpa floors and more schools becoming splitter friendly.

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