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Hi all -

Struggling with this decision right now. Fordham at near sticker (could commute from home but don't plan to at the moment) or Emory with 78k scholly.

My goals: A job paying enough money to pay back my debt. Want to do IP eventually (non patent) but I know that doesn't matter at this point. I'm from NY and would prefer to work/live here eventually.

I guess the question is what are my chances of making it back to NY with a degree from Emory?

Secondly, if the chances of making it back to NY from Emory are slim, does the $$ plus Emory's strong placement in Atlanta still make it a better option than Fordham?

Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.

For each school, how much debt would you have upon graduation?

Does Emory even have particularly strong placement in Atlanta? From my understanding, they only put about 11-12% of their class into biglaw firms. Still, given your options, you basically have no choice. Fordham at near sticker, even if you're commuting, is unreasonable.

Doorkeeper wrote:Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.

Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

JetsFan1990 wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.

Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Law School Transparency.

JetsFan1990 wrote:Does Emory even have particularly strong placement in Atlanta? From my understanding, they only put about 11-12% of their class into biglaw firms. Still, given your options, you basically have no choice. Fordham at near sticker, even if you're commuting, is unreasonable.

It's tough to say, because Emory is a school that seems intent on not owning local firms, and rather being national or quasi-national. Less than half of grads take the bar in Georgia. I think their placement can be attributed to people vastly overestimating the school's placement power. As far as ATL hiring goes, Emory and UGA are basically peers, though big firms might dig slightly deeper into Emory's class.

RE: Doorkeeper's point about 19% in biglaw and 11% work in NY, I'd bet there's a significant overlap between the two. Top 10% at Emory will likely ship out for big city work.

Doorkeeper wrote:

JetsFan1990 wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.

Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Law School Transparency.

The Go-To Schools list only shows NLJ 250 biglaw placement, correct?

JetsFan1990 wrote:Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Not every "large" firm is on the NLJ250. Also some NLJ250 qualifying firms are super TTT.

Doorkeeper wrote:

JetsFan1990 wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.

Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Law School Transparency.

Duh, that makes sense. haha sorry.

Robespierre wrote:For each school, how much debt would you have upon graduation?

Fordham ~250k
Emory ~175k

I've done all the math and realize these numbers are shitty and that making six figures from either school comes down to being in the top XX% of the class. I've seen the LST data as well. I don't know as much about Emory though and was wondering what their 68% employment score on LST really equates to. I know their biglaw score is what was quoted above. I'm trying to figure out what both these scores mean for someone who stays in the south. Do they have a better shot at paying off 175k as opposed to someone from Fordham gunning for NY and then paying off 250k?

boredtodeath wrote:Fordham ~250k
Emory ~175k

I've done all the math and realize these numbers are shitty and that making six figures from either school comes down to being in the top XX% of the class. I've seen the LST data as well. I don't know as much about Emory though and was wondering what their 68% employment score on LST really equates to. I know their biglaw score is what was quoted above. I'm trying to figure out what both these scores mean for someone who stays in the south. Do they have a better shot at paying off 175k as opposed to someone from Fordham gunning for NY and then paying off 250k?

You have roughly an 80% chance of being abjectly fucked either way from a pure odds standpoint. That is an egregious amount of debt for those odds. Retake or don't go.

boredtodeath wrote:

Robespierre wrote:For each school, how much debt would you have upon graduation?

Fordham ~250k
Emory ~175k

I've done all the math and realize these numbers are shitty and that making six figures from either school comes down to being in the top XX% of the class. I've seen the LST data as well. I don't know as much about Emory though and was wondering what their 68% employment score on LST really equates to. I know their biglaw score is what was quoted above. I'm trying to figure out what both these scores mean for someone who stays in the south. Do they have a better shot at paying off 175k as opposed to someone from Fordham gunning for NY and then paying off 250k?

Sorry, my friend, that's just too much debt for schools that are leaving 40% of their grads unemployed or underemployed in this economy. Bad choices in your situation.

Beware of that 68% Emory employment score; it includes a lot of school-funded stopgap jobs.

If you MUST choose, do Emory because the debt is lower and because it allows you to wage a two-front employment war (i.e. Atlanta and NYC).

Neither. Retake. That's too much debt

Robespierre wrote:For each school, how much debt would you have upon graduation?

This is how prospective students should look at it. Not what is the size of the discount, but what is the final cost. The original tuition at most schools is marked up significantly, and then discounted, giving students the false impression that they're getting a deal. Looking at actual expenses puts things back into perspective.

tfleming09 wrote:Not every "large" firm is on the NLJ250. Also some NLJ250 qualifying firms are super TTT.

For LST's purposes, a "large" firm is one with 101 or more attorneys. NLJ250 is about 160+. NALP categories are 101-250, 251-500, and 501+, which is why LST gets different numbers than NLJ250.

And yes, even some NLJ250 firms are pretty TTT. I know at least one starts at $80,000. And, big firm placement stats don't distinguish between the main market offices and satellite offices.

Robespierre wrote:If you MUST choose, do Emory because the debt is lower and because it allows you to wage a two-front employment war (i.e. Atlanta and NYC).

Unless he's Raymond K. Hessel, he doesn't have to choose either.

basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.

ze2151 wrote:basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.

This sort of stops making sense when you get to the T14. I don't think anybody would argue that HYS isn't worth sticker, but their grads likely won't be making $270k their first year.

rickgrimes69 wrote:

ze2151 wrote:basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.

This sort of stops making sense when you get to the T14. I don't think anybody would argue that HYS isn't worth sticker, but their grads likely won't be making $270k their first year.

While I wouldn't make the argument that it isn't worth sticker, I will make the argument that the value is debatable. I think at HYS we can stipulate that if you want a BigLaw job, you can get one. Trouble is keeping it. Lots of big firms have associate attrition rates of 75%+ (over an 8-10 year period), and there's not good data on where associates land when given the boot. Some will go to other firms, some go in house, some do consulting, but we don't know how many do versus how many are spit out of BigLaw after 2 years and have to settle with a smaller firm paying $75,000 a year.

rickgrimes69 wrote:

ze2151 wrote:basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.

This sort of stops making sense when you get to the T14. I don't think anybody would argue that HYS isn't worth sticker, but their grads likely won't be making $270k their first year.

rick, it comes down not just to 1st year exit options, but sustainability. the reason the rule of thumb is a good rule is because, even if you could guarantee a 160k job coming out of hys (you can't) you have to be able to sustain that job long enough to pay down a mountain of debt.

in fact, i would go as far as to say that hys at sticker, financed completely, is a disastrous idea. no one should take out 250k+ in unsecured, high-interest, non-dischargeable debt. and this would only add onto whatever undergrad debt a person is carrying (and someone inclined to finance the entire cost of attendance probably didn't have a lot of money lying around at the undergraduate level and so likely has undergrad debt too). do the math on a 10 yr or 25 yr payment plan for 300k of debt. it's positively insane to advise anyone to take out that kind of student loan debt, unless the person you're advising is going to be a medical doctor (see, the stability caveat).

tfleming09 wrote:

JetsFan1990 wrote:Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Not every "large" firm is on the NLJ250. Also some NLJ250 qualifying firms are super TTT.

How dare you call Morgan & Morgan at TTT. FOR TEH PEOPLEEE

ze2151 wrote:rick, it comes down not just to 1st year exit options, but sustainability. the reason the rule of thumb is a good rule is because, even if you could guarantee a 160k job coming out of hys (you can't) you have to be able to sustain that job long enough to pay down a mountain of debt.

in fact, i would go as far as to say that hys at sticker, financed completely, is a disastrous idea. no one should take out 250k+ in unsecured, high-interest, non-dischargeable debt. and this would only add onto whatever undergrad debt a person is carrying (and someone inclined to finance the entire cost of attendance probably didn't have a lot of money lying around at the undergraduate level and so likely has undergrad debt too). do the math on a 10 yr or 25 yr payment plan for 300k of debt. it's positively insane to advise anyone to take out that kind of student loan debt, unless the person you're advising is going to be a medical doctor (see, the stability caveat).

But hey, YOLO

rad lulz wrote:

tfleming09 wrote:

JetsFan1990 wrote:Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Not every "large" firm is on the NLJ250. Also some NLJ250 qualifying firms are super TTT.

How dare you call Morgan & Morgan at TTT. FOR TEH PEOPLEEE

Glad someone caught who I was explicitly referring to

ze2151 wrote:

rickgrimes69 wrote:

ze2151 wrote:basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.

This sort of stops making sense when you get to the T14. I don't think anybody would argue that HYS isn't worth sticker, but their grads likely won't be making $270k their first year.

rick, it comes down not just to 1st year exit options, but sustainability. the reason the rule of thumb is a good rule is because, even if you could guarantee a 160k job coming out of hys (you can't) you have to be able to sustain that job long enough to pay down a mountain of debt.

in fact, i would go as far as to say that hys at sticker, financed completely, is a disastrous idea. no one should take out 250k+ in unsecured, high-interest, non-dischargeable debt. and this would only add onto whatever undergrad debt a person is carrying (and someone inclined to finance the entire cost of attendance probably didn't have a lot of money lying around at the undergraduate level and so likely has undergrad debt too). do the math on a 10 yr or 25 yr payment plan for 300k of debt. it's positively insane to advise anyone to take out that kind of student loan debt, unless the person you're advising is going to be a medical doctor (see, the stability caveat).

Then again, HYS have LRAPs that will basically cover you if you like in a ditch soaked in your own vomit.

I will make the argument that the value is debatable.

i would go as far as to say that hys at sticker, financed completely, is a disastrous idea

Ok what is happening here

I'm pretty debt adverse but to say HYS isn't worth sticker just because it's really expensive is sort of ridiculous. $270k is a lot but there's very little risk in terms of your ability to get a job that can service the debt. Whether or not you're any good at it / don't hate it is another matter altogether, but frankly you should maybe figure that out before you go and start a career regardless of how much you pay.

Edit: Also, anybody who pays down $270k on a 25 year repayment plan when they're making $160k is stupid. That's living way beyond their means relative to their debt load and will cost about twice as much in interest compared to a 10 year plan.