What's Virginia's advantage over Michigan Forum

[Real Madrid]

Who knows; maybe if they were a tad bit more holistic they wouldn't be placing one fifth of their graduates in school-funded jobs.

Michigan is pretty holistic and it doesn't seem to be working that great for them.

UVA's problem isn't that it's taking splitters, it's that it isn't taking engineer splitters. Every 172/2.8 engineer that NU takes is a sticker-paying student that's going to pump up the employment stats because he's IPSECURE.

Perhaps it's not working that great, but they're doing better than UVa - at least according to your own charts.

Anyway, OP, both schools are more or less equal, and you should decide based upon your career goals. UVa is a great school, I just wish their admissions office wasn't so shameless when it comes to gaming the USNWR rankings. But I digress.

[rayiner]

Who knows; maybe if they were a tad bit more holistic they wouldn't be placing one fifth of their graduates in school-funded jobs.

Michigan is pretty holistic and it doesn't seem to be working that great for them.

UVA's problem isn't that it's taking splitters, it's that it isn't taking engineer splitters. Every 172/2.8 engineer that NU takes is a sticker-paying student that's going to pump up the employment stats because he's IPSECURE.

Perhaps it's not working that great, but they're doing better than UVa - at least according to your own charts.

Anyway, OP, both schools are more or less equal, and you should decide based upon your career goals. UVa is a great school, I just wish their admissions office wasn't so shameless when it comes to gaming the USNWR rankings. But I digress.

It's just a silly thing to rag on a school for. Michigan is propped up in the USNWR rankings by academic prestige that has long since faded everywhere except faculty lounges. So what?

[Real Madrid]

Who knows; maybe if they were a tad bit more holistic they wouldn't be placing one fifth of their graduates in school-funded jobs.

Michigan is pretty holistic and it doesn't seem to be working that great for them.

UVA's problem isn't that it's taking splitters, it's that it isn't taking engineer splitters. Every 172/2.8 engineer that NU takes is a sticker-paying student that's going to pump up the employment stats because he's IPSECURE.

Perhaps it's not working that great, but they're doing better than UVa - at least according to your own charts.


Anyway, OP, both schools are more or less equal, and you should decide based upon your career goals. UVa is a great school, I just wish their admissions office wasn't so shameless when it comes to gaming the USNWR rankings. But I digress.

It's just a silly thing to rag on a school for. Michigan is propped up in the USNWR rankings by academic prestige that has long since faded everywhere except faculty lounges. So what?

Maybe so, but one of those things is not like the other.

[Just]

Who knows; maybe if they were a tad bit more holistic they wouldn't be placing one fifth of their graduates in school-funded jobs.

Michigan is pretty holistic and it doesn't seem to be working that great for them.

UVA's problem isn't that it's taking splitters, it's that it isn't taking engineer splitters. Every 172/2.8 engineer that NU takes is a sticker-paying student that's going to pump up the employment stats because he's IPSECURE.

Perhaps it's not working that great, but they're doing better than UVa - at least according to your own charts.

Anyway, OP, both schools are more or less equal, and you should decide based upon your career goals. UVa is a great school, I just wish their admissions office wasn't so shameless when it comes to gaming the USNWR rankings. But I digress.

It's just a silly thing to rag on a school for. Michigan is propped up in the USNWR rankings by academic prestige that has long since faded everywhere except faculty lounges. So what?

faded everywhere？

[UVAIce]

Its main advantage is that it's much better at gaming the shit out of USNWR's ranking system by accepting tons of splitters and reverse splitters so that it can maintain its wildly inflated medians. Oh, and it's also better at providing shit tons of graduates with school-funded jobs to game the rankings on the back end.

Otherwise, it's more or less equal.

u mad u got rejected?

More like bewildered that a "top 10" school lets in 162, 3.9 sociology majors for the sheer sake of maintaining its "170, 3.85" median. Also glad that I won't be attending the second worst T14 employability-wise according to rayiner's research.

I'm sure the 6 points on the LSAT you have over the sociology major makes you oh so intellectually superior. You have been spending too much time on TLS. Stop being such a narcissist; just because they said no to you doesn't mean that there is no method to their madness.

[Real Madrid]

Its main advantage is that it's much better at gaming the shit out of USNWR's ranking system by accepting tons of splitters and reverse splitters so that it can maintain its wildly inflated medians. Oh, and it's also better at providing shit tons of graduates with school-funded jobs to game the rankings on the back end.

Otherwise, it's more or less equal.

u mad u got rejected?

More like bewildered that a "top 10" school lets in 162, 3.9 sociology majors for the sheer sake of maintaining its "170, 3.85" median. Also glad that I won't be attending the second worst T14 employability-wise according to rayiner's research.

I'm sure the 6 points on the LSAT you have over the sociology major makes you oh so intellectually superior. You have been spending too much time on TLS. Stop being such a narcissist; just because they said no to you doesn't mean that there is no method to their madness.

Don't get so uptight, brah. And there is definitely a method to their madness - they're masterful at gaming the rankings. Don't know why you're getting upset about me pointing that out.

[rayiner]

It's just a silly thing to rag on a school for. Michigan is propped up in the USNWR rankings by academic prestige that has long since faded everywhere except faculty lounges. So what?

faded everywhere？

Everywhere except faculty lounges anyway. Though, don't feel bad, Leiter agrees that the academic reputation score is the absolute most important thing about a law school: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2 ... e_us_.html.

[Elston Gunn]

u mad u got rejected?

im sure hes furious, every other post of his has been filled with UVa hate ever since receiving that rejection letter.

looking at his post history is like DVRing chappelles player hater ball. HATEHATEHATE

I did get rejected, but I also got rejected from Penn and Chicago, and I have nothing against those two schools. I just find UVa's admissions policies to be so blatantly stupid and pathetic that I'm actually embarrassed for the school.

Who knows; maybe if they were a tad bit more holistic they wouldn't be placing one fifth of their graduates in school-funded jobs.

What can I say about your posts that hasn't been said about Afghanistan?

underrated post

[UVAIce]

Don't get so uptight, brah. And there is definitely a method to their madness - they're masterful at gaming the rankings. Don't know why you're getting upset about me pointing that out.

Oh I'm good bro. I'll forgive a lot to a Real Madrid fan - LOVE Mesut Ozil and Sami Khedira. Just put some of your UVA hate to rest.

[Just]

"Virginia has graduates in each of the American Lawyer top 100 firms (as of March 2012).

No. 2 in the number of alumni who are general counsel at top companies (Corporate Counsel, 2010)

No. 2 in the number of associates promoted to partner among NLJ's top 250 firms in 2011"

Is this impressive or just some convenient stats?

[justonemoregame]

UVA: Gaming the rankings since 1819.

[sunynp]

Which is why I made the disclaimer. Bottom third isn't gonna coast by. They will need OCS help. But if they hustle they can make it happen, in most cases I would say. SOMETHING will work out. Maybe it won't be big law, and that's an argument for keeping debt down wherever you go right now.

As a C/O 2012 grad from another T14, I have to say that the "SOMETHING" is usually a quite undesirable outcome. Most of my class got big law or a clerkship, a few got a legitimate PI job. The rest didn't get a comfortable $85k small firm job. They have no options worth taking right now. Once you're outside the range of big law, you're off a cliff.

Rayiner: In another UVA thread yesterday someone thought your graph was not a fair basis to judge 2015 employment because hiring seems to be up in some firms. He felt I was being overly dramatic by using that data where 1 out of 3 people from UVA don't have desirable outcomes.

I dont think things have changed dramatically for most schools. Do you have any feeling about that comment?

Second, and maybe someone should start a thread on this, do we need to create some kind of "employment" or placement rankings? You are correct that people correlate ranking with employment when that isn't precisely the case. Is there a better way to clarify rankings on this forum?

Third - the number of school funded jobs from UVA is scary. I think people should consider the school funded jobs as a warning sign, outside of Yale which seems to have always funded fellowships for people. I think the Yale funded jobs are created with a different purpose than to gain the rankings.

[rayiner]

Rayiner: In another UVA thread yesterday someone thought your graph was not a fair basis to judge 2015 employment because hiring seems to be up in some firms. He felt I was being overly dramatic by using that data where 1 out of 3 people from UVA don't have desirable outcomes.

I dont think things have changed dramatically for most schools. Do you have any feeling about that comment?

Second, and maybe someone should start a thread on this, do we need to create some kind of "employment" or placement rankings? You are correct that people correlate ranking with employment when that isn't precisely the case. Is there a better way to clarify rankings on this forum?

Third - the number of school funded jobs from UVA is scary. I think people should consider the school funded jobs as a warning sign, outside of Yale which seems to have always funded fellowships for people. I think the Yale funded jobs are created with a different purpose than to gain the rankings.

I don't know how much better things are at UVA. There was an uptick in big firm hiring from C/O 2011 to C/O 2013, but that seems to have stalled. Appearances are that this year's OCI will be worse than last year's.

But the larger point of this chart is the sheer number of people who don't find something. PI and government hiring is no better now than it was in 2011. People who miss big law aren't going to come up with "something" they're going to struggle. Is it going to be 1/3 of the class like it was in 2011? Hopefully not. But it's not 2007. I'd say for my class at NU, graduating this year, 100 attorney firms + clerkships is probably up 5%, with a corresponding decrease in underemployment. We're still talking about 1 out of 5 of your friends struggling, studying for the bar while trying to fight off the panic about having no job to go to after.

[sherpaorlawschool]

I don't know how much better things are at UVA. There was an uptick in big firm hiring from C/O 2011 to C/O 2013, but that seems to have stalled. Appearances are that this year's OCI will be worse than last year's.

What is the basis for the claim that this year's OCI will be worse?

[rickgrimes69]

"Virginia has graduates in each of the American Lawyer top 100 firms (as of March 2012).

No. 2 in the number of alumni who are general counsel at top companies (Corporate Counsel, 2010)

No. 2 in the number of associates promoted to partner among NLJ's top 250 firms in 2011"

Is this impressive or just some convenient stats?

ok

[rayiner]

I don't know how much better things are at UVA. There was an uptick in big firm hiring from C/O 2011 to C/O 2013, but that seems to have stalled. Appearances are that this year's OCI will be worse than last year's.

What is the basis for the claim that this year's OCI will be worse?

Corporate activity is down from this time last year. E.g. M&A is down 25% the first half of 2012. Remember that OCI 2011 was on the heels of a very busy year for firms. But it slowed down dramatically at the end and hasn't really picked back up since.

[Just]

What are the reasons for Umich's decline?is it likely to continue?

[timbs4339]

It's just a silly thing to rag on a school for. Michigan is propped up in the USNWR rankings by academic prestige that has long since faded everywhere except faculty lounges. So what?

faded everywhere？

Everywhere except faculty lounges anyway. Though, don't feel bad, Leiter agrees that the academic reputation score is the absolute most important thing about a law school: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2 ... e_us_.html.

How interesting that the two schools he's taught at both happened to be severely underrated by USNWR! He really loves the underdog.

[2014]

What are the reasons for Umich's decline?is it likely to continue?

They had a year where their career services people gave misguided advice and some Mich folks argue that it was an anomaly for placement, and it appears that way.

In terms of last years USNWR rankings though, if you look at the raw scores Mich didn't actually fall at all, the 3 schools behind them just gained and passed them. Some of that is that they are a public school with a large class (i.e. less money and less money per student) and they have lower medians than PV and lower GPA than B.

Eta: M is probably hurt by not being located in or as near to a major market as the 9 schools as PVB. When you consider things like reputation surveys which for whatever reason are also a part of the formula, you have to assume that PVB all benefit from being closer to areas more concentrated with attorneys.

[rayiner]

What are the reasons for Umich's decline?is it likely to continue?

They had a year where their career services people gave misguided advice and some Mich folks argue that it was an anomaly for placement, and it appears that way.

In terms of last years USNWR rankings though, if you look at the raw scores Mich didn't actually fall at all, the 3 schools behind them just gained and passed them. Some of that is that they are a public school with a large class (i.e. less money and less money per student) and they have lower medians than PV and lower GPA than B.

Not last year's rank, it's a much longer trend: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/faculty ... rship/108/ (click 'Download', chart on the first page).

In the 1970's, Michigan was considered right up there with Harvard and Yale. It's still riding that academic reputation (even though nobody besides faculty think its any different than UVA): http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... -news.html. Although, it dropped a notch last year: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html. I'm not sure it will keep dropping, but that score is the only thing keeping them in the top 10 for USNWR.

Note Bene: this is of course all bullshit. Nobody cares about USNWR academic reputation scores except Leiter. I even regret the three minutes I spent typing this post, but it's already out there.

[Julio_El_Chavo]

I don't know how much better things are at UVA. There was an uptick in big firm hiring from C/O 2011 to C/O 2013, but that seems to have stalled. Appearances are that this year's OCI will be worse than last year's.

What is the basis for the claim that this year's OCI will be worse?

1) the lateral market is cooling down
2) the economy sucks
3) M&A activity is down

[2014]

What are the reasons for Umich's decline?is it likely to continue?

They had a year where their career services people gave misguided advice and some Mich folks argue that it was an anomaly for placement, and it appears that way.

In terms of last years USNWR rankings though, if you look at the raw scores Mich didn't actually fall at all, the 3 schools behind them just gained and passed them. Some of that is that they are a public school with a large class (i.e. less money and less money per student) and they have lower medians than PV and lower GPA than B.

Not last year's rank, it's a much longer trend: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/faculty ... rship/108/ (click 'Download', chart on the first page).

In the 1970's, Michigan was considered right up there with Harvard and Yale. It's still riding that academic reputation (even though nobody besides faculty think its any different than UVA): http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... -news.html. Although, it dropped a notch last year: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html. I'm not sure it will keep dropping, but that score is the only thing keeping them in the top 10 for USNWR.

Note Bene: this is of course all bullshit. Nobody cares about USNWR academic reputation scores except Leiter. I even regret the three minutes I spent typing this post, but it's already out there.

I just assumed the question referred to recent history which is more because of failure to improve while those around them did. The evidence you point out though is interesting looking forward as you could make the argument that M is quickly heading for 13th if they maintain large class sizes ITE while losing the charity points from reputation. If you get their rep score down to DCN levels coupled with the fact that those schools have 100-150 less students to place in jobs, they should be able to pass M with ease.

Also I had no idea reputation was weighed so heavily in the USNWR formula, so stupid.

[rayiner]

I just assumed the question referred to recent history which is more because of failure to improve while those around them did. The evidence you point out though is interesting looking forward as you could make the argument that M is quickly heading for 13th if they maintain large class sizes ITE while losing the charity points from reputation. If you get their rep score down to DCN levels coupled with the fact that those schools have 100-150 less students to place in jobs, they should be able to pass M with ease.

Also I had no idea reputation was weighed so heavily in the USNWR formula, so stupid.

Right now, I don't think the way "employed" is defined, placement meaningfully factors in. Though, the latest USNWR contains a brutally honest assessment of the situation:

Placement success (weighted by 0.20): There is currently much controversy over the veracity of some schools' placement data. Each year, schools report to the American Bar Association how many of their most recent grads had jobs lined up nine months after graduation. U.S. News collects this nine-month data—as well as information on how many from the class were employed at graduation—when we survey the schools for our annual rankings.

The ABA will start requiring more detailed jobs placement data for the 2011 graduating class that will require law schools to reveal such key stats as how many graduates had jobs that are full time or part time, short term or long term, and that actually require the J.D. degree. U.S. News plans to incorporate this more granular data into our methodology for future rankings.

Also, I think the decline in Michigan's academic reputation is something that will level out.

[Just]

Law school GPA at Umich is lower than UVA, does this have any negative impact when looking for jobs at law firm?
Is UVA's B+ curve really a big bonus?
A harsher curve at Umich means more study is needed?

[2014]

Law school GPA at Umich is lower than UVA, does this have any negative impact when looking for jobs at law firm?
Is UVA's B+ curve really a big bonus?
A harsher curve at Umich means more study is needed?

It's your rank that matters not your GPA. Firms have been recruiting at both schools long enough to realize that a V 3.3 =/= M 3.3. It means you probably have to try harder at M for a 3.3 than you do at V (Assuming effort correlates with results), but it should be just as hard/easy to get similar class ranks at each school.