Top Law Schools

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AllDangle wrote:Thanks for the poll votes. Any input on the debt payments?

Yeah, you're gonna need big law in order to pay it off, or you opt for IBR, maybe a LARP program if UVA has a good one.

Good new is, in comparison to all other law schools in existence, big law job prospects rank in the top 14.

Assuming NY biglaw, the debt can be paid off in as little as 4 years, if you live frugally. (some have said 3 years, but that's not realistic)
Most people will take significantly longer, due to spending issues.

Outside of NY, it's dependent on the market.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/mor ... lator.aspx

https://onlinepayroll.intuit.com/extern ... lators.jsp

Have fun.

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http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5&t=184470


I think you'll find this helpful.

AllDangle wrote:Title pretty much sums it up. Is UVA worth sticker and how many years would it take to pay off $200K+ in loans? Interests are in big law, preferably in the southeast, or clerkship.

By southeast, do you mean ATL? ATL has the best market salary (145K) combined with a (relatively) low cost of living. If you budget properly and go all in on loans you can pay it off in 5ish years (when you get passed over for partner or leave to avoid killing yourself)

tfleming09 wrote:

AllDangle wrote:Title pretty much sums it up. Is UVA worth sticker and how many years would it take to pay off $200K+ in loans? Interests are in big law, preferably in the southeast, or clerkship.

By southeast, do you mean ATL? ATL has the best market salary (145K) combined with a (relatively) low cost of living. If you budget properly and go all in on loans you can pay it off in 5ish years (when you get passed over for partner or leave to avoid killing yourself)

Haha. By southeast I meant mostly Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Orlando. With that much debt it seems like it really is biglaw or bust.

dkb17xzx wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5&t=184470


I think you'll find this helpful.

If this is the thread with rayiner's risk discounting analysis, reading it is tcr. (sorry on my phone). Mods should probably make it a sticky, in fact.

AllDangle wrote:Haha. By southeast I meant mostly Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Orlando. With that much debt it seems like it really is biglaw or bust.

I think market in Orlando is closer to 100K, not sure about Tampa or Miami. Charlotte is similar to ATL I think.

ATL is just a bigger market and they like UVA (or really, T14 grads) and it's not insular at all, so it's the easiest to break. Just prestige and grade whore-y. The other markets are pretty good ol' boy centric.

My family lives in the southeast and I have been in FL for 10+ years now so hopefully I can utilize those ties, if accepted to UVA. Is UVA @ sticker worth it if I would end up in a $100K market with lower COL?

AllDangle wrote:My family lives in the southeast and I have been in FL for 10+ years now so hopefully I can utilize those ties, if accepted to UVA. Is UVA @ sticker worth it if I would end up in a $100K market with lower COL?

I think you'd be fine on that, especially if you had a dual-income household. If in FL, you get the benefit of favorable income tax laws (would add about 8K in take-home on a $100K salary).

Play with those calculators, write a budget, they are v. helpful

AllDangle wrote:Title pretty much sums it up. Is UVA worth sticker and how many years would it take to pay off $200K+ in loans? Interests are in big law, preferably in the southeast, or clerkship.

No. I think you can't make this decision in a vacuum. You need to see where else you are accepted. I would never take out more than 200,000 in loans and expect to make biglaw just to pay it back. You have to make a plan for the downside. IBR is financial ruin, no credit, no house for pretty much the rest of your life, unless you hit some miracle windfall. LRAP jobs are very hard to get and to keep. People who have those jobs aren't leaving because they are counting on LRAP as well and need to stay 10 years.

I know other people disagree with me but i would never go $200,000 in debt for law school. The numbers for legal hiring are terrible. Even if you get biglaw, you have to hope to get and keep a job that most people only last in for a few years. If you don't get biglaw, you have ruined your future.

UVa might have a better chance at biglaw but it isn't a sure thing. I would never do this.

AllDangle wrote:My family lives in the southeast and I have been in FL for 10+ years now so hopefully I can utilize those ties, if accepted to UVA. Is UVA @ sticker worth it if I would end up in a $100K market with lower COL?

I mean, maybe - but going all in on FL, which has a SPS economy and small/saturated legal market would be dumb.

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AllDangle wrote:Agreed. By no means would I go all in, was wondering if the market would permit paying off loans in a relatively short time.

I think it would be smartest to go where the market pays the most and the cost of living is the least, which is why I suggested ATL. Florida at 100K with 200K in debt would kind of suck, even though Florida's lack of state income tax is legit.

tfleming09 wrote:

AllDangle wrote:Agreed. By no means would I go all in, was wondering if the market would permit paying off loans in a relatively short time.

I think it would be smartest to go where the market pays the most and the cost of living is the least, which is why I suggested ATL. Florida at 100K with 200K in debt would kind of suck, even though Florida's lack of state income tax is legit.

And then lateral when your debt is reasonably low (or paid off)

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AllDangle wrote:

tfleming09 wrote:I think it would be smartest to go where the market pays the most and the cost of living is the least, which is why I suggested ATL. Florida at 100K with 200K in debt would kind of suck, even though Florida's lack of state income tax is legit.

Helps, thanks. It would be great to see some input from those voting in the poll on why UVA is or is not worth sticker.

If you're at all risk averse UVA at sticker is quite a gamble. Less than half the 2011 class got big law + federal clerkships, and one out of six grads ended up in law school funded one-year gigs, which count as "long-term" employment for the purposes of NALP/ABA stats but aren't really.

Then toss in the risks of not being able to keep/stand big law for long enough to pay off the $239K (in-state) $257K (out of state) debt if you debt finance 100%.

Paul Campos wrote:

AllDangle wrote:

tfleming09 wrote:I think it would be smartest to go where the market pays the most and the cost of living is the least, which is why I suggested ATL. Florida at 100K with 200K in debt would kind of suck, even though Florida's lack of state income tax is legit.

Helps, thanks. It would be great to see some input from those voting in the poll on why UVA is or is not worth sticker.

If you're at all risk averse UVA at sticker is quite a gamble. Less than half the 2011 class got big law + federal clerkships, and one out of six grads ended up in law school funded one-year gigs, which count as "long-term" employment for the purposes of NALP/ABA stats but aren't really.

Then toss in the risks of not being able to keep/stand big law for long enough to pay off the $239K (in-state) $257K (out of state) debt if you debt finance 100%.

With the Virginia LRAP plan you should really include public interest jobs as well as UVA will make the monthly loan payments for you. Also, Campos is something like a slightly more educated Glen Beck on law schools.

This is probably not the best time to go to graduate school period. If you are set on going to law school then UVA at sticker is really not a terrible proposition. Especially since the job numbers from 2011 reflect the bottom of the barrel since the Great Recession. Something that is more important than job numbers from UVA and everything else is what exactly do you have lined up now and are you already set on going to law school as it is?

Note: I am obviously biased as I am a member of the UVA Law class of 2015. That and I really hate the Wolverines.

I think this question is more useful in context. What are the other choices?

Paul Campos wrote:

AllDangle wrote:

tfleming09 wrote:I think it would be smartest to go where the market pays the most and the cost of living is the least, which is why I suggested ATL. Florida at 100K with 200K in debt would kind of suck, even though Florida's lack of state income tax is legit.

Helps, thanks. It would be great to see some input from those voting in the poll on why UVA is or is not worth sticker.

If you're at all risk averse UVA at sticker is quite a gamble. Less than half the 2011 class got big law + federal clerkships, and one out of six grads ended up in law school funded one-year gigs, which count as "long-term" employment for the purposes of NALP/ABA stats but aren't really.

Then toss in the risks of not being able to keep/stand big law for long enough to pay off the $239K (in-state) $257K (out of state) debt if you debt finance 100%.

Professor- in this economy, would you attend Michigan at sticker?

As someone paying full tuition at UVA that is looking at unemployment I can say this.... Is UVA worth sticker? No. And I say this because I honestly think that No school outside of HYS is worth paying sticker in this economy. No matter how hard you work, you may end up missing biglaw (even with good grades) at schools other than HYS. In addition, UVA makes it very hard on students who strike out by having a completely out of touch administration. They do not give students opportunities to really gain work experience during the year, which I believe is utter crap, and even if you do gain actual experience, you won't get credit for it in most circumstances (those circumstnaces being you do a clinic in the small town of cville). Career service people are very informative but honestly don't know shit about anything other than biglaw firms, not giving students ample opportunity to search outside of biglaw for law firm jobs that might even fit their interests more.

The school's name and the alumni are worth every penny and I believe that wholeheartedly, but at face value, the school is no way worth 257K.

$$$$$$ wrote:As someone paying full tuition at UVA that is looking at unemployment I can say this.... Is UVA worth sticker? No. And I say this because I honestly think that No school outside of HYS is worth paying sticker in this economy. No matter how hard you work, you may end up missing biglaw (even with good grades) at schools other than HYS. In addition, UVA makes it very hard on students who strike out by having a completely out of touch administration. They do not give students opportunities to really gain work experience during the year, which I believe is utter crap, and even if you do gain actual experience, you won't get credit for it in most circumstances (those circumstnaces being you do a clinic in the small town of cville). Career service people are very informative but honestly don't know shit about anything other than biglaw firms, not giving students ample opportunity to search outside of biglaw for law firm jobs that might even fit their interests more.

The school's name and the alumni are worth every penny and I believe that wholeheartedly, but at face value, the school is no way worth 257K.

UVA Ice needs to straighten this guy out.

In response to the question about Michigan what I would do personally if I were graduating college now is irrelevant since everybody's individual circumstances are different. (OK that's a copout: I wouldn't go to law school period right now knowing what I know. But as a wise man once said the problem with life is that it can only be understood backwards but must be lived forwards).

What's relevant is that there are a lot of people today for whom, as $$$$$ argues, no law school outside of HYS is worth sticker, given the risk/reward ratios. (For a smaller group even HYS at sticker doesn't make sense).