. Forum

[Flash]

YLS is the only school worth sticker.

[catholicgirl]

Everyone's circumstances are different. But when I had the option of paying sticker at UVA or sticker at Chicago, I chose Chicago. Like you, I had geographic reasons for ultimately selecting my final choice for law school. BUT, before I chose Chicago I was fully comfortable with paying sticker at UVA>

I also think it's important to point out that you don't HAVE to take out the total loan package for any of these schools. I slashed a not insignificant amount off of my loan package.

[AllDangle]

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[BruceWayne]

If you're not from the South UVA is not worth sticker. Luckily for the OP he is and that's where he wants to work. Although it is still risky, especially if you're not the type to hustle and network (or if you're ONLY willing to work in Atlanta) it is probably worth it.

UVA is definitely not worth sticker for someone from DC or the northeast. I really encourage people from those areas not to attend any non HYS CCN school (or maybe Penn) without BIG scholarship money.

[AllDangle]

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[Real Madrid]

It's a difficult decision, but just make sure you aren't getting caught up in the prestige of the T14. I would be a little worried about the ridiculously high number of school-funded jobs UVa has been providing - 1 in 5 graduates are taking them - but, if I had no other T14 option, I might just do it.

[sunynp]

If you're not from the South UVA is not worth sticker. Luckily for the OP he is and that's where he wants to work. Although it is still risky, especially if you're not the type to hustle and network (or if you're ONLY willing to work in Atlanta) it is probably worth it.

UVA is definitely not worth sticker for someone from DC or the northeast. I really encourage people from those areas not to attend any non HYS CCN school (or maybe Penn) without BIG scholarship money.

Thanks for the input. It seems from the poll and input from some here that in my position (only probable shot in the T14, southern ties, and biglaw/clerkship interests) that UVA @ sticker is worth the investment.

I wish I could vote no more than once. Just think about repaying $200,000 plus interest. That is just way too much money to pay for a degree when you might not get a job that will allow you to repay it. If you get the job, you may not stay at the salary level you need to maintain the payments.

Did you use the Georgetown calculator to see how much it will be with accrued interest? Did you look at how much the monthly debt payments will be if you want to pay it off in 10 years?

edit: At least follow the UVa OCI thread closely. Last year it was a shitstorm but then calmed down. Still their unemployment and underemployment rate scares me. The high number of school funded jobs also scares me.

[UVAIce]

As someone paying full tuition at UVA that is looking at unemployment I can say this.... Is UVA worth sticker? No. And I say this because I honestly think that No school outside of HYS is worth paying sticker in this economy. No matter how hard you work, you may end up missing biglaw (even with good grades) at schools other than HYS. In addition, UVA makes it very hard on students who strike out by having a completely out of touch administration. They do not give students opportunities to really gain work experience during the year, which I believe is utter crap, and even if you do gain actual experience, you won't get credit for it in most circumstances (those circumstnaces being you do a clinic in the small town of cville). Career service people are very informative but honestly don't know shit about anything other than biglaw firms, not giving students ample opportunity to search outside of biglaw for law firm jobs that might even fit their interests more.

The school's name and the alumni are worth every penny and I believe that wholeheartedly, but at face value, the school is no way worth 257K.

UVA Ice needs to straighten this guy out.

In response to the question about Michigan what I would do personally if I were graduating college now is irrelevant since everybody's individual circumstances are different. (OK that's a copout: I wouldn't go to law school period right now knowing what I know. But as a wise man once said the problem with life is that it can only be understood backwards but must be lived forwards).

What's relevant is that there are a lot of people today for whom, as $$$$$ argues, no law school outside of HYS is worth sticker, given the risk/reward ratios. (For a smaller group even HYS at sticker doesn't make sense).

I think this is exactly where you are missing the boat Professor Campos. From my experience, in the current economy it almost doesn't matter what degree you have - quite a few young engineers I know are a little worried to see what happens in their field after the Pentagon's budget gets slashed -and the fact is that a lot of young adults out there with college degrees will find out that those diplomas aren't worth the paper they are were printed on. It's easy to tell people to not get into law. But what are we supposed to be getting into? What exactly is the popping new "top ten" field on Yahoo today? Many of the law school blogs come across as a spoiled sub-genre of "college isn't worth it."

Admittedly, I am not going to UVA at full price. Regardless, I would still tell someone to take UVA - or even Michigan for that matter- at sticker rather than attend a number of other institutions. Is it still a risk? You bet! I will say this, if you are going straight from undergrad to law school and paying full price at any law school, Yale included, I would advise that person not to go. No reason to lock yourself into a profession at such a young age when you haven't at least checked out what life is like outside of school. If you are employed at the moment, I would encourage you to save up some money for a few years and see if you can add a couple of points to your LSAT before you apply. For better or worse, law school will still be there in a few years. Heck, you may even discover that you passion for some other field.

[sunynp]

I think this question is more useful in context. What are the other choices?

I will be applying this cycle but am asking because I will be applying ED. My UG major does not leave me with another route to go other than law school. Also, I have worked for a firm for 18 months now and am set on going to law school. I will most likely also be admitted in-state to UF. UVA w/ ED @ Sticker is my best, if not sole, shot at the T14.

What major leaves you only with the option of law school? That is ridiculous. You should not pay sticker at UVA.

[sunynp]

As someone paying full tuition at UVA that is looking at unemployment I can say this.... Is UVA worth sticker? No. And I say this because I honestly think that No school outside of HYS is worth paying sticker in this economy. No matter how hard you work, you may end up missing biglaw (even with good grades) at schools other than HYS. In addition, UVA makes it very hard on students who strike out by having a completely out of touch administration. They do not give students opportunities to really gain work experience during the year, which I believe is utter crap, and even if you do gain actual experience, you won't get credit for it in most circumstances (those circumstnaces being you do a clinic in the small town of cville). Career service people are very informative but honestly don't know shit about anything other than biglaw firms, not giving students ample opportunity to search outside of biglaw for law firm jobs that might even fit their interests more.

The school's name and the alumni are worth every penny and I believe that wholeheartedly, but at face value, the school is no way worth 257K.

UVA Ice needs to straighten this guy out.

In response to the question about Michigan what I would do personally if I were graduating college now is irrelevant since everybody's individual circumstances are different. (OK that's a copout: I wouldn't go to law school period right now knowing what I know. But as a wise man once said the problem with life is that it can only be understood backwards but must be lived forwards).

What's relevant is that there are a lot of people today for whom, as $$$$$ argues, no law school outside of HYS is worth sticker, given the risk/reward ratios. (For a smaller group even HYS at sticker doesn't make sense).

I think this is exactly where you are missing the boat Professor Campos. From my experience, in the current economy it almost doesn't matter what degree you have - quite a few young engineers I know are a little worried to see what happens in their field after the Pentagon's budget gets slashed -and the fact is that a lot of young adults out there with college degrees will find out that those diplomas aren't worth the paper they are were printed on. It's easy to tell people to not get into law. But what are we supposed to be getting into? What exactly is the popping new "top ten" field on Yahoo today? Many of the law school blogs come across as a spoiled sub-genre of "college isn't worth it."

Admittedly, I am not going to UVA at full price. Regardless, I would still tell someone to take UVA - or even Michigan for that matter- at sticker rather than attend a number of other institutions. Is it still a risk? You bet! I will say this, if you are going straight from undergrad to law school and paying full price at any law school, Yale included, I would advise that person not to go. No reason to lock yourself into a profession at such a young age when you haven't at least checked out what life is like outside of school. If you are employed at the moment, I would encourage you to save up some money for a few years and see if you can add a couple of points to your LSAT before you apply. For better or worse, law school will still be there in a few years. Heck, you may even discover that you passion for some other field.

Why would you advise someone to make a decision that you didn't make? The risk of not getting a job to service sticker debt from Michigan and UVa is very high. The chance that you won't keep that job long enough to repay your debt is even higher.

I think the advice from the UVa grad who doesn't have a job is the advice to follow. See what happens to a person who doesn't have everything work out the best possible way - he says NO IT ISN'T WORTH IT.

It bothers me when people who have never taken one law school exam bank their future on doing extremely well, getting a low probability biglaw job (which they have no idea whether they will like or be able to handle) and keeping that job. Some people will succeed at this, but very few will. To me this is as bad as, or worse than, going to a school with a stip on the scholarship. You know walking in the door that the odds are against keeping the scholarship, yet people still go, full of confidence that they will keep their scholarships.

You know walking in the door that a certain percentage of grads from these schools will lose the biglaw lottery. This isn't pre-ITE where getting a biglaw job was a reasonable shot (and tuition was lower). So how is this any different from taking a scholarship with stips that you know the odds are against you keeping it?

Based on Rayiner's UN-employment chart that measure unemployment and underemployment - UVA grads have about a 35% chance of not getting a job; Michigan grads have about a 28% chance of not getting a job. Would you take a scholarship you had a 30% chance of losing? Probably you would, but so would everyone else. Some of you are going to be losers, that is just a fact. Why is everyone so confident it won't be them? It has to be someone. (Of course it is much worse than losing a scholarship, you are still going to have to find someway to pay back that debt.)

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Not having another job doesn't make sticker debt at a law school a good decision. There is a logical fallacy in there somewhere. Not having a job with $150,000 of debt facing you down for 20 years is much worse than no job with no debt.

I saw a post here yesterday by a person who is currently on IBR, even though he is one of the lucky grads who has a decent job as a lawyer. If he didn't have debt he would be doing fine. With the debt, he never even checks the balance of his loans and has given up ever owning a home or being able to have credit.

[AllDangle]

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[FlightoftheEarls]

Based on Rayiner's UN-employment chart that measure unemployment and underemployment - UVA grads have about a 35% chance of not getting a job; Michigan grads have about a 28% chance of not getting a job. Would you take a scholarship you had a 30% chance of losing? Probably you would, but so would everyone else. Some of you are going to be losers, that is just a fact. Why is everyone so confident it won't be them? It has to be someone.

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thread

I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying, but keep in mind that these figures represent c/o 2011. The economy is hardly peachy, and it's certainly not 2006 all over again. That said, Cravath is taking a few more than 22 summers this year, and it's a little disingenuous to pretend that prospective students' outcomes are exactly the same as they were for c/o 2011.

[flem]

I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying, but keep in mind that these figures represent c/o 2011. The economy is hardly peachy, and it's certainly not 2006 all over again. That said, Cravath is taking a few more than 22 summers this year, and it's a little disingenuous to pretend that prospective students' outcomes are exactly the same as they were for c/o 2011.

May as well plan for the worst, though.

[sunynp]

Based on Rayiner's UN-employment chart that measure unemployment and underemployment - UVA grads have about a 35% chance of not getting a job; Michigan grads have about a 28% chance of not getting a job. Would you take a scholarship you had a 30% chance of losing? Probably you would, but so would everyone else. Some of you are going to be losers, that is just a fact. Why is everyone so confident it won't be them? It has to be someone.

chart
thread

I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying, but keep in mind that these figures represent c/o 2011. The economy is hardly peachy, and it's certainly not 2006 all over again. That said, Cravath is taking a few more than 22 summers this year, and it's a little disingenuous to pretend that prospective students' outcomes are exactly the same as they were for c/o 2011.

you're joking right? You are going to base the odds of getting a biglaw job from Cravath taking a few more summers?

[sunynp]

I think this question is more useful in context. What are the other choices?

I will be applying this cycle but am asking because I will be applying ED. My UG major does not leave me with another route to go other than law school. Also, I have worked for a firm for 18 months now and am set on going to law school. I will most likely also be admitted in-state to UF. UVA w/ ED @ Sticker is my best, if not sole, shot at the T14.

What major leaves you only with the option of law school? That is ridiculous. You should not pay sticker at UVA.

CJ. After a stint interning for a PD I decided that it was not for me. I have been at a firm the past 18 months and this is what I want to do. Regardless of what my major is/could have been, I would still want to pursue law school. Obviously there is risk involved. Just by attending law school, any law school, you risk getting pwned by the curve or in certain instances, as you mentioned, losing a scholarship. Granted the potential for a bad financial outcome is higher when you are taking out $200k in loans, but going to a lower ranked regional school, with lower job placement, while still needing to take out loans is also a gamble when you don't know if you will get a job to even service that debt.

Sorry after I posted that, I edited it to a longer response. Are you sure that you have no choice in life other than taking out $250,000 in loans for a bet on law school? There must be alternatives. Not going to law school is one.

You seem determined to go what ever advice you are given. (including advice from a current student who says it isn't worth it.) So, good luck.

[flem]

you're joking right? You are going to base the odds of getting a biglaw job from Cravath taking a few more summers?

I mean, optimistically, SA hiring seems to be up across the board. For many of us who want to be lawyers and have shitty liberal arts degrees, paying sticker at a T10 law school with a 50/50 shot at a 6 figure income is a "safe" gamble compared to our alternatives. There are no guarantees.

[BruceWayne]

Sorry after I posted that, I edited it to a longer response. Are you sure that you have no choice in life other than taking out $250,000 in loans for a bet on law school? There must be alternatives. Not going to law school is one.

You seem determined to go what ever advice you are given. (including advice from a current student who says it isn't worth it.) So, good luck.

I'm sorry but the guy you're arguing with does have a point. Mainly there really aren't a lot of options for a large number of college grads. For those of us who attended average undergrads, didn't major in engineering, and don't have any connections, the likelihood that we will only be able to work retail/food service jobs (or--if we're lucky--a 35K or less a year job) is very high. Higher than one's likelihood of not landing a good job from a top 14 law school. And before someone responds with the obligatory "but if someone has the credentials to get into a top 14 then surely they have many other great options" that's total garbage. The barrier to entry for law school, even a top one, really only consists of a high LSAT and a 3.0 (and really not even the latter depending on how high the LSAT is). The barrier for getting a good paying job straight out of undergrad is MUCH higher. Often it requires specific very difficult majors (engineering/accounting etc.) that one would have had to have chosen at 18 years of age; or a degree from a prestigious institution (again something someone would have had to have the foresight to choose at 18), or that classic way that most people get great jobs--connections.

For many, law school is the one ticket into the middle or upper middle class lifestyle. This isn't the 80s or 90s where entry level jobs are relatively plentiful and are good long terms paths to success. Companies are NOT trying to hire young college grads and work is being outsourced. All of these so called "options" for recent college grads that people on this forum seem to think exist are mostly out reach for the average college grad. Ironically enough, as much as TLS accuses the average college student of not knowing how bad things are in the legal field; and of being out of touch with reality. The average TLS poster is even more out of touch with how bad things are for those who only have a college degree. There seems to be this strong "the grass is always greener" thinking going on with many on TLS.

mean, optimistically, SA hiring seems to be up across the board. For many of us who want to be lawyers and have shitty liberal arts degrees, paying sticker at a T10 law school with a 50/50 shot at a 6 figure income is a "safe" gamble compared to our alternatives. There are no guarantees.

And this is basically a 2 sentence summary of my post.

[sunynp]

Sorry after I posted that, I edited it to a longer response. Are you sure that you have no choice in life other than taking out $250,000 in loans for a bet on law school? There must be alternatives. Not going to law school is one.

You seem determined to go what ever advice you are given. (including advice from a current student who says it isn't worth it.) So, good luck.

I'm sorry but the guy you're arguing with does have a point. Mainly there really aren't a lot of options for a large number of college grads. For those of us who attended average undergrads, didn't major in engineering, and don't have any connections, the likelihood that we will only be able to work retail/food service jobs (or--if we're lucky--a 35K or less a year job) is very high. Higher than one's likelihood of not landing a good job from a top 14 law school. And before someone responds with the obligatory "but if someone has the credentials to get into a top 14 then surely they have many other great options" that's total garbage. The barrier to entry for law school, even a top one, really only consists of a high LSAT and a 3.0 (and really not even the latter depending on how high the LSAT is). The barrier for getting a good paying job straight out of undergrad is MUCH higher. Often it requires specific very difficult majors (engineering/accounting etc.) that one would have had to have chosen at 18 years of age; or a degree from a prestigious institution (again something someone would have had to have the foresight to choose at 18), or that classic way that most people get great jobs--connections.

For many, law school is the one ticket into the middle or upper middle class lifestyle. This isn't the 80s or 90s where entry level jobs are relatively plentiful and are good long terms paths to success. Companies are NOT trying to hire young college grads and work is being outsourced. All of these so called "options" for recent college grads that people on this forum seem to think exist are mostly out reach for the average college grad. Ironically enough, as much as TLS accuses the average college student of not knowing how bad things are in the legal field; and of being out of touch with reality. The average TLS poster is even more out of touch with how bad things are for those who only have a college degree. There seems to be this strong "the grass is always greener" thinking going on with many on TLS.

mean, optimistically, SA hiring seems to be up across the board. For many of us who want to be lawyers and have shitty liberal arts degrees, paying sticker at a T10 law school with a 50/50 shot at a 6 figure income is a "safe" gamble compared to our alternatives. There are no guarantees.

And this is basically a 2 sentence summary of my post.

I didn't say the grass was greener. I'm saying that ending up with no job and 6 figures of debt is a much worse outcome. To me the risk is very high. For sure you won't be having a middle class lifestyle if you are struggling to repay debt. If one out of three grads (or taking your numbers 1 out of 2 grads) are not getting a job that will service their debt ( and worse if it is sticker debt) then paying sticker is a big gamble. I think a large number of people are going to be worse off when they graduated then when they started. How is that reasonable?

Maybe the only alternative is to give law a shot for a year and then drop out if you don't make it. The problem with that is that people who aren't making it in law school or at OCI are not going to have more options than they did when they started. They will still have to find something else.

[flem]

I didn't say the grass was greener. I'm saying that ending up with no job and 6 figures of debt is a much worse outcome. To me the risk is very high. For sure you won't be having a middle class lifestyle if you are struggling to repay debt. If one out of three grads (or taking your numbers 1 out of 2 grads) are not getting a job that will service their debt ( and worse if it is sticker debt) then paying sticker is a big gamble. I think a large number of people are going to be worse off when they graduated then when they started. How is that reasonable?

Maybe the only alternative is to give law a shot for a year and then drop out if you don't make it. The problem with that is that people who aren't making it in law school or at OCI are not going to have more options than they did when they started. They will still have to find something else.

But it's not very high. This isn't a TT/TTT/TTTT school, it's a T10 school where roughly half of grads snag biglaw jobs or clerkships. The next 25-30% will snag public interest or small firm work and many can take advantage of UVA's LRAP, plus IBR if need be. Some are temporarily employed by the school (and that's bad, but better than being left out in the cold). Is it ideal or perfect? No, what you're saying is hilariously hyperbolic. If we're talking about paying sticker for schools like Emory, Notre Dame or WUSTL you'd have a point.

There are plenty of schools that are not worth sticker that are leaving 25-50% of their grads COMPLETELY UNEMPLOYED and half of the employed grads with no shit to service their debt. Your argument applies to them, it doesn't apply to T14 schools for the most part.

Law school is, ironically, one situation where your own risk aversion can kill you.

[sunynp]

I didn't say the grass was greener. I'm saying that ending up with no job and 6 figures of debt is a much worse outcome. To me the risk is very high. For sure you won't be having a middle class lifestyle if you are struggling to repay debt. If one out of three grads (or taking your numbers 1 out of 2 grads) are not getting a job that will service their debt ( and worse if it is sticker debt) then paying sticker is a big gamble. I think a large number of people are going to be worse off when they graduated then when they started. How is that reasonable?

Maybe the only alternative is to give law a shot for a year and then drop out if you don't make it. The problem with that is that people who aren't making it in law school or at OCI are not going to have more options than they did when they started. They will still have to find something else.

But it's not very high. This isn't a TT/TTT/TTTT school, it's a T10 school where roughly half of grads snag biglaw jobs or clerkships. The next 25-30% will snag public interest or small firm work and many can take advantage of UVA's LRAP, plus IBR if need be. Some are temporarily employed by the school (and that's bad, but better than being left out in the cold). Is it ideal or perfect? No, what you're saying is hilariously hyperbolic. If we're talking about paying sticker for schools like Emory, Notre Dame or WUSTL you'd have a point.

There are plenty of schools that are not worth sticker that are leaving 25-50% of their grads COMPLETELY UNEMPLOYED and half of the employed grads with no shit to service their debt. Your argument applies to them, it doesn't apply to T14 schools for the most part.

Law school is, ironically, one situation where your own risk aversion can kill you.

I think IBR is much worse than not having gone to law school. But people are determined to go, so good luck to everyone. I hope that it works out for the best for people.

[$$$$$$]

Take my advice for what its worth, but if you have the LSAT score to get into UVA, then thats fine, pay sticker. Odds are you'll end up close enough to median to make grades become almost irrelevant to you getting a job. But you better be prepared to hustle your ass off, interview like a champ, do all the little things necessary, otherwise you'll be screwed.

If I were you OP, I would work, live, travel, teach in foreign countries, enjoy life for as long as possible before you come to law school. I am in my mid 20's, I feel like i'm 16 still, and im stressed like im 40. I'm lucky to have made things happen for myself (still not going to be as well paid as biglaw), but schools don't give a shit about you, you are just another tuition check, even at UVa. I'm not a riskaverse person, and I have confidence that I will totally fine in life, im sure you are too. But before you take the gamble, why not live it up while you still can?

[bjsesq]

I didn't say the grass was greener. I'm saying that ending up with no job and 6 figures of debt is a much worse outcome. To me the risk is very high. For sure you won't be having a middle class lifestyle if you are struggling to repay debt. If one out of three grads (or taking your numbers 1 out of 2 grads) are not getting a job that will service their debt ( and worse if it is sticker debt) then paying sticker is a big gamble. I think a large number of people are going to be worse off when they graduated then when they started. How is that reasonable?

Maybe the only alternative is to give law a shot for a year and then drop out if you don't make it. The problem with that is that people who aren't making it in law school or at OCI are not going to have more options than they did when they started. They will still have to find something else.

But it's not very high. This isn't a TT/TTT/TTTT school, it's a T10 school where roughly half of grads snag biglaw jobs or clerkships. The next 25-30% will snag public interest or small firm work and many can take advantage of UVA's LRAP, plus IBR if need be. Some are temporarily employed by the school (and that's bad, but better than being left out in the cold). Is it ideal or perfect? No, what you're saying is hilariously hyperbolic. If we're talking about paying sticker for schools like Emory, Notre Dame or WUSTL you'd have a point.

There are plenty of schools that are not worth sticker that are leaving 25-50% of their grads COMPLETELY UNEMPLOYED and half of the employed grads with no shit to service their debt. Your argument applies to them, it doesn't apply to T14 schools for the most part.

Law school is, ironically, one situation where your own risk aversion can kill you.

I think IBR is much worse than not having gone to law school. But people are determined to go, so good luck to everyone. I hope that it works out for the best for people.

I agree. The IBR blows dick, people.

[flem]

I think IBR is much worse than not having gone to law school. But people are determined to go, so good luck to everyone. I hope that it works out for the best for people.

I mean, IBR would suck, but your odds of needing to go on IBR are lower than your chances of snagging biglaw/clerkship. It's a shot that many, myself included, would take.

Don't get me wrong, law school is laughably expensive, but your odds of having a great outcome are 50/50 and your odds of being totally, abjectly fucked are pretty close to zero out of T14 schools (Georgetown excepted)

Beats slaving away as a paralegal for 35K a year or bartending for the rest of my life, which are my current options without additional school. What the fuck am I going to do, go get a PhD in poLOLitcal science?

[jrstephens1991]

Really depends on where you decide to practice in the south.

In a fairly large market like Atlanta, I believe it would definitely be worth it. Top law firms there take great honor in recruiting new attorneys from a school such as UVA.

However, if you decide to move to a smaller market like Birmingham, Columbia, any of the FL cities besides maybe Miami, or Nashville, it may be more of a stretch.

Once thing to consider is that in general the cost of living is much less in the south, hence lower salaries relative to other parts of the country. Definitely will take more than 3-4 years.

...then if you get married/have children soon after.. decades...

[AllDangle]

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