Top Law Schools

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ironbmike wrote:Thoughts/opinions on these schools, or my situation in general?

Retake and aim for GW with scholly or Georgetown if you're DC or bust.

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You should consider employment statistics from these schools.

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ironbmike wrote:I have. About 60% working with their law degree for each. Not great.

But here's the thing. This forum and everywhere else is all about how terrible a decision it is to go to law school. Lots of debt, too much competition, terrible prospects for repaying debt. But seriously, what is the alternative? Continue working a dead-end 32K job?

Edit: I've wanted to go to law school but put it off for a year because of the sad state of things. But how many years can I keep putting it off and hope for it to get better?

No dude, just go to a top program or go to one of these schools you mentioned for a very reasonable (like 80K max total debt) price

What was your prep like? I'm retaking a 162 currently.

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ironbmike wrote:

tfleming09 wrote:

ironbmike wrote:I have. About 60% working with their law degree for each. Not great.

But here's the thing. This forum and everywhere else is all about how terrible a decision it is to go to law school. Lots of debt, too much competition, terrible prospects for repaying debt. But seriously, what is the alternative? Continue working a dead-end 32K job?

Edit: I've wanted to go to law school but put it off for a year because of the sad state of things. But how many years can I keep putting it off and hope for it to get better?

No dude, just go to a top program or go to one of these schools you mentioned for a very reasonable (like 80K max total debt) price

What was your prep like? I'm retaking a 162 currently.

Took the Kaplan course.

Well there's your problem right there. Testmasters / Powerscore / Manhattan > Princeton Review > Kaplan. They're not a bad course but they don't really teach strategies essential for scoring 170+ and their instructors aren't as qualified.

rickgrimes69 wrote:

ironbmike wrote:

tfleming09 wrote:

ironbmike wrote:I have. About 60% working with their law degree for each. Not great.

But here's the thing. This forum and everywhere else is all about how terrible a decision it is to go to law school. Lots of debt, too much competition, terrible prospects for repaying debt. But seriously, what is the alternative? Continue working a dead-end 32K job?

Edit: I've wanted to go to law school but put it off for a year because of the sad state of things. But how many years can I keep putting it off and hope for it to get better?

No dude, just go to a top program or go to one of these schools you mentioned for a very reasonable (like 80K max total debt) price

What was your prep like? I'm retaking a 162 currently.

Took the Kaplan course.

Well there's your problem right there. Testmasters / Powerscore / Manhattan > Princeton Review > Kaplan. They're not a bad course but they don't really teach strategies essential for scoring 170+ and their instructors aren't as qualified.

The credited response. Kaplan is terrible.

Richmond isn't a bad choice if you're want Richmond, I guess. As long as its cheap enough

And to reiterate, Kaplan is garbage

rickgrimes69 wrote: Well there's your problem right there. Testmasters / Powerscore / Manhattan > Princeton Review > Kaplan. They're not a bad course but they don't really teach strategies essential for scoring 170+ and their instructors aren't as qualified.

Even without a 170+ if you get in the mid to high 160s you're looking at W&M and GW. Do you remember what your diagnostic was?

FlanSolo wrote:

rickgrimes69 wrote: Well there's your problem right there. Testmasters / Powerscore / Manhattan > Princeton Review > Kaplan. They're not a bad course but they don't really teach strategies essential for scoring 170+ and their instructors aren't as qualified.

Even without a 170+ if you get in the mid to high 160s you're looking at W&M and GW. Do you remember what your diagnostic was?

If I recall, I topped out in the upper 160s. But my memory is a bit fuzzy.

I guess what I'd like to know is, where is the perfect balance between dropping down to get scholarships and a better class rank, and going for the highest ranked school?

ironbmike wrote:I guess what I'd like to know is, where is the perfect balance between dropping down to get scholarships and a better class rank, and going for the highest ranked school?

It's not a horrible idea to drop down for scholarships, but you have no idea how you'll do as far as class rank! So retake! It's not even late, and a good October score could drastically change your options.

I took the LSAT 3x and jumped 9 points on the last take. Was it frustrating? Yes. Was it worth it? Hell yes.

ironbmike wrote: If I recall, I topped out in the upper 160s. But my memory is a bit fuzzy.

Yeah, I know it's the conventional wisdom on this site, but if you could score in the upper 160s, you shouldn't settle for a 162. You will have much better options. Also, since the cycle doesn't start up for a bit, you might as well take again in October after you've used a legit prep company.

ironbmike wrote:I guess what I'd like to know is, where is the perfect balance between dropping down to get scholarships and a better class rank, and going for the highest ranked school?

I mean, if you score in the high 160s, you'll probably get money at either GW or W&M (though I'd confirm that on LSN). I'd also caution you against thinking that a lower ranked school will necessarily result in a better class rank. The data schools use to measure their inputs (LSAT/GPA) are only loosely correlated to 1L grades, and it's much more important whether you "get" law school or not (for example, it's my understanding that transfer students tend do well at their new schools, even if they wouldn't have had a shot to get in as a 0L). Thus, the best strategy for employment prospects is to go to the best school you can get in to, because you will have the widest margin for error.

Have you considered ED'ing at GW or GULC? Or perhaps RD @ GULC PT? If you have a job, I assume app fees are worth the potential acceptance.

FlanSolo wrote:

ironbmike wrote: If I recall, I topped out in the upper 160s. But my memory is a bit fuzzy.

Yeah, I know it's the conventional wisdom on this site, but if you could score in the upper 160s, you shouldn't settle for a 162. You will have much better options. Also, since the cycle doesn't start up for a bit, you might as well take again in October after you've used a legit prep company.

ironbmike wrote:I guess what I'd like to know is, where is the perfect balance between dropping down to get scholarships and a better class rank, and going for the highest ranked school?

I mean, if you score in the high 160s, you'll probably get money at either GW or W&M (though I'd confirm that on LSN). I'd also caution you against thinking that a lower ranked school will necessarily result in a better class rank. The data schools use to measure their inputs (LSAT/GPA) are only loosely correlated to 1L grades, and it's much more important whether you "get" law school or not (for example, it's my understanding that transfer students tend do well at their new schools, even if they wouldn't have had a shot to get in as a 0L). Thus, the best strategy for employment prospects is to go to the best school you can get in to, because you will have the widest margin for error.

Ok then forget class rank. I'm more concerned about the money aspect (scholarships are very attractive).

But theoretically if a school has 60% full-time law employment for graduates, generally speaking getting in the top 60% of your class should land you a full-time law job, right? Naturally the higher the better.

727813 wrote:Have you considered ED'ing at GW or GULC? Or perhaps RD @ GULC PT? If you have a job, I assume app fees are worth the potential acceptance.

You seriously think I have a shot at those?

And what about W&L, I barely hear it talked about. Is that worth looking into?

ironbmike wrote: But theoretically if a school has 60% full-time law employment for graduates, generally speaking getting in the top 60% of your class should land you a full-time law job, right? Naturally the higher the better.

nope. while it's true that the very bottom of most schools are completely fucked, plenty of people strike out from all over the class, and plenty of people not near the top get jobs based on prior experience, connections, luck, etc.

fatduck wrote:

ironbmike wrote: But theoretically if a school has 60% full-time law employment for graduates, generally speaking getting in the top 60% of your class should land you a full-time law job, right? Naturally the higher the better.

nope. while it's true that the very bottom of most schools are completely fucked, plenty of people strike out from all over the class, and plenty of people not near the top get jobs based on prior experience, connections, luck, etc.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Well I'm from the DC area and have worked at two law firms here so I feel like it would be advantageous to stay here. Only problems are the massive competition and the COL. COL I can deal with, but if I go to GM or Richmond I feel like it'll be tough to crack in.

And FYI I don't necessarily want to work in biglaw. Been working at two small firms and I enjoy this environment.

ironbmike wrote: Gotcha. Makes sense. Well I'm from the DC area and have worked at two law firms here so I feel like it would be advantageous to stay here. Only problems are the massive competition and the COL. COL I can deal with, but if I go to GM or Richmond I feel like it'll be tough to crack in.

And FYI I don't necessarily want to work in biglaw. Been working at two small firms and I enjoy this environment.

It will be much easier to crack the D.C. market from GMU than from Richmond, if for no other reason than the fact that you can do plenty of networking while you're here. There are some reasonably placed places in Arlington, and if you have a car you can reduce COA by moving further from Clarendon/VA Square, etc.

Either way, I still think you should retake given that you can still do the October LSAT without delaying another year or hurting your chances too much by applying late.

FlanSolo wrote:

ironbmike wrote: Gotcha. Makes sense. Well I'm from the DC area and have worked at two law firms here so I feel like it would be advantageous to stay here. Only problems are the massive competition and the COL. COL I can deal with, but if I go to GM or Richmond I feel like it'll be tough to crack in.

And FYI I don't necessarily want to work in biglaw. Been working at two small firms and I enjoy this environment.

It will be much easier to crack the D.C. market from GMU than from Richmond, if for no other reason than the fact that you can do plenty of networking while you're here. There are some reasonably placed places in Arlington, and if you have a car you can reduce COA by moving further from Clarendon/VA Square, etc.

Either way, I still think you should retake given that you can still do the October LSAT without delaying another year or hurting your chances too much by applying late.

Alright, I will retake the LSAT and see what I can pull. Thanks for the advice everyone.

Oh, how much will it hurt me if I score lower? Or totally bomb it?

ironbmike wrote: Alright, I will retake the LSAT and see what I can pull. Thanks for the advice everyone.

Oh, how much will it hurt me if I score lower? Or totally bomb it?

Well, you won't bomb it, because you haven't bombed it in two opportunities, and you're going to be better prepared. So, I don't really think there's much, if any, downside. Maybe one of the more forceful "retake/reapply" pushers on the site has some better information. (FYI - I'm not usually keen to push the retake/reapply option, but given that doing so wouldn't mess with your timing, and you worked with a suspect prep company, I think it's a good idea.)

Also, feel free to PM me with any other questions. I'm from the DC area, just finished my 1L year, and my SO went to VTech, so I have a soft spot for Hokies.

rickgrimes69 wrote:

ironbmike wrote:

tfleming09 wrote:

ironbmike wrote:I have. About 60% working with their law degree for each. Not great.

But here's the thing. This forum and everywhere else is all about how terrible a decision it is to go to law school. Lots of debt, too much competition, terrible prospects for repaying debt. But seriously, what is the alternative? Continue working a dead-end 32K job?

Edit: I've wanted to go to law school but put it off for a year because of the sad state of things. But how many years can I keep putting it off and hope for it to get better?

No dude, just go to a top program or go to one of these schools you mentioned for a very reasonable (like 80K max total debt) price

What was your prep like? I'm retaking a 162 currently.

Took the Kaplan course.

Well there's your problem right there. Testmasters / Powerscore / Manhattan > Princeton Review > Kaplan. They're not a bad course but they don't really teach strategies essential for scoring 170+ and their instructors aren't as qualified.

Retake! I jumped on the 3rd attempt after MUCH preparation and frustration am I'm now T10 secure w money. You have nothing to lose since schools take the highest score these days. Yeah retaking SUUUUUUCKS but it's worth it.