Top Law Schools

.

What kind of clerkship would you be looking for?

Also, none of them, unless you do well there (which you shouldn't assume that you will).

Depending on where you want to end up, you can get federal or state supreme clerkships in Montana or Wyoming or places like that from their in-state schools though you need demonstrated ties. Honestly, retaking is a good idea. Get into a T-14/ED UVA with a 170+ and you'll have a good chance if you're in the top 10-25% of clerking.

isn't UGA the big one - just going off what i remember when i was looking back in the day

I don't mean to be presumptuous in assuming that I would be top 10% or better, but I understand that as a key criterium for any federal clerk.

I imagine State Supreme Court would be equally interesting -- UMN? William&Mary?

As for retaking, I don't see how 170+ is a given and I'm not sure I can handle studying for the next 5 months -- again.

bartleby: Haven't read up on UGA. I will. Thanks.

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:164 / 3.5 and I want to clerk. I'm also fortunate enough to commit to LS and take on less than 100K regardless of where I end up. I'm sure folks will say to retake, anyways, but I'm pretty certain I won't.

So, what schools outside of T14 give their top 10% or top quarter the best chance at a clerkship?

Thanks.

You would have to do exceedingly well at any school to be competitive for federal clerkships. State clerkships are more dependent upon the school and state. I don't think I would be concerned about which schools at that level place well into clerkships, I'd be concerned about figuring out where I would want to practice. Picking a school based on potential opportunities that arise from being in the top 10% of the class seems kind of silly.

Also, why are you so opposed to retaking? If you want to clerk, you should probably go to a school that provides a meaningful chance for you to do so. The only way that happens is by retaking.
If you don't think you can study for five months, what's your game-plan for law school?

bigeast03 wrote:

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:164 / 3.5 and I want to clerk. I'm also fortunate enough to commit to LS and take on less than 100K regardless of where I end up. I'm sure folks will say to retake, anyways, but I'm pretty certain I won't.

So, what schools outside of T14 give their top 10% or top quarter the best chance at a clerkship?

Thanks.

You would have to do exceedingly well at any school to be competitive for federal clerkships. State clerkships are more dependent upon the school and state. I don't think I would be concerned about which schools at that level place well into clerkships, I'd be concerned about figuring out where I would want to practice. Picking a school based on potential opportunities that arise from being in the top 10% of the class seems kind of silly.

Also, why are you so opposed to retaking? If you want to clerk, you should probably go to a school that provides a meaningful chance for you to do so. The only way that happens is by retaking.
If you don't think you can study for five months, what's your game-plan for law school?

1. Practice in MA: where I am from, and where I have strong ties in the legal realm. Thus, clerking anywhere would help me in the long run in getting a solid job in MA.

2. I don't think I can study for the LSAT for 5 months while working 50+ hrs a week and with multiple other committments outside of work. And even if I did, 170 is not a lock.

I've heard Notre Dame has decent clerkship stats (relative to it's ranking, of course).

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:1. Practice in MA: where I am from, and where I have strong ties in the legal realm. Thus, clerking anywhere would help me in the long run in getting a solid job in MA.

2. I don't think I can study for the LSAT for 5 months while working 50+ hrs a week and with multiple other committments outside of work. And even if I did, 170 is not a lock.

A 170 is certainly not a lock, but the LSAT is a learnable test. Marked gains can definitely be expected, and with a 164, breaking 170 is more than plausible. It should be easier to study a learnable test than to expect to perform well enough on a forced curve to secure a clerkship from the schools in the range you are currently looking at.
As an anecdote, I worked full time and studied for the LSAT and improved from a 159 to a 169.

If you are in the MA area, BC or BU would most likely be your strongest options.

Clerking for the SSC in Oregon isn't going to help you in Mass. You need to be looking at federal stuff or MA state courts. Either one is tough to get. You really ought to be focusing on getting into the T14. UVA does very well for clerkships.

Your plan doesn't make any sense. It adds up to planning to finish in the top 5% of your class instead of trying to get into a better law school, even though the latter is vastly easier to accomplish than the former. The reason the former is tempting is that it requires doing the necessary work in the vague future later instead of the concrete present.

While the T14 doesn't have a monopoly on bigfirm work, they almost do when it comes to clerkships. I'm at BU here, and I believe we have 10 federal clerks upcoming, which puts as at about 3-4% of the class. To get a clerkship from a non-top school, you will need: ludicrous grades (like top 10 students, not %); serious connections; or ties to a less-competitive state...

Paul Campos wrote:Your plan doesn't make any sense. It adds up to planning to finish in the top 5% of your class instead of trying to get into a better law school, even though the latter is vastly easier to accomplish than the former. The reason the former is tempting is that it requires doing the necessary work in the vague future later instead of the concrete present.

I suppose that's part of my original question. Is top 5% the cut off from some T30 school. Or are their others that may more reliably place students in the top 15 or 25%.

I get the LSAT thing. 170 would be sick. But I question the degree to which everybody assumes 170+ on the LSAT is no sweat, and top 10% in a law school is an impossibility. Conjecture either way requires a big assumption.

Blindmelon wrote:While the T14 doesn't have a monopoly on bigfirm work, they almost do when it comes to clerkships. I'm at BU here, and I believe we have 10 federal clerks upcoming, which puts as at about 3-4% of the class. To get a clerkship from a non-top school, you will need: ludicrous grades (like top 10 students, not %); serious connections; or ties to a less-competitive state...

Thanks for the insight. I'm optimistic about good grades with good connections, and open to LS in a less-competitive state.

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:

Blindmelon wrote:While the T14 doesn't have a monopoly on bigfirm work, they almost do when it comes to clerkships. I'm at BU here, and I believe we have 10 federal clerks upcoming, which puts as at about 3-4% of the class. To get a clerkship from a non-top school, you will need: ludicrous grades (like top 10 students, not %); serious connections; or ties to a less-competitive state...

Thanks for the insight. I'm optimistic about good grades with good connections, and open to LS in a less-competitive state.

While I think its possible to muscle your way into the top 1/3rd - going beyond that takes a lot of aptitude for law tests and luck... you can't predict it. If you really, really want to clerk, retake - being in the top 10% is a lot harder than people think.. not only is it hard, you need to get law school very quickly as 1 bad semester (or for me 1 eh year) can keep you from the top of the class.

I don't know about state court clerkships, but for federal clerkships from Duke:

- top third for a chance at district court
- top 15% for a chance at appellate court

Keep in mind that is just for a chance at one of these positions after graduating. It would be to your advantage to be within the top 20% for a good chance at district court and within the top 10% for an appellate court.

Once leaving the T14 realm, the top quarter is (in almost all circumstances) not going to land you one of these positions. If this is something that you truly want, then you must retake to even have a realistic chance at obtaining your goal. Please do not go to a lower ranked school in hopes of either transferring or being the one special snowflake among the entire class.

Thanks for the responses. I think I understand my options as the following:

1) Retake. Get above 170. Go t14 and try to be top quarter for a federal clerkship

2) 164 / 3.5 my way to a t20-t40 school. Get good grades before I think about anything else.

Any others?

And, would it be crazy to apply in Nov. and take the Dec '12 LSAT?

Just retake, bro. I know it seems daunting, but you have a 3.5 and funding for your degree. Why not put in the work to make the very best out of your opportunities? Think about it: Paul Campos, a tenured professor at exactly the kind of law school you are currently planning to attend, took the time to tell you that it was a terrible idea not to retake the LSAT, especially given your goals. That should tell you something important about the type of decision you're considering making (read: it's not the best one).

The best advice? Stop making excuses and capitalize on your opportunities.

ETA: I know you've already studied to get your 164, in that, understandably, makes it more difficult to jump back on the wagon. You should look up a poster on here called crumpetsandtea. She jumped back on the wagon after a 160 something LSAT that she had studied for, and now she's at Northwestern. She even had a much lower GPA than you.

North wrote:Just retake, bro. I know it seems daunting, but you have a 3.5 and funding for your degree. Why not put in the work to make the very best out of your opportunities? Think about it: Paul Campos, a tenured professor at exactly the kind of law school you are currently planning to attend, took the time to tell you that it was a terrible idea not to retake the LSAT, especially given your goals. That should tell you something important about the type of decision you're considering making (read: it's not the best one).

The best advice? Stop making excuses and capitalize on your opportunities.

ETA: I know you've already studied to get your 164, in that, understandably, makes it more difficult to jump back on the wagon. You should look up a poster on here called crumpetsandtea. She jumped back on the wagon after a 160 something LSAT that she had studied for, and now she's at Northwestern. She even had a much lower GPA than you.

Thanks. But is a Dec '12 retake futile if I want to apply this fall / winter? I don't want to wait until the fall of 2013 to apply and I'm sure I won't be ready in October of this year.

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:

North wrote:Just retake, bro. I know it seems daunting, but you have a 3.5 and funding for your degree. Why not put in the work to make the very best out of your opportunities? Think about it: Paul Campos, a tenured professor at exactly the kind of law school you are currently planning to attend, took the time to tell you that it was a terrible idea not to retake the LSAT, especially given your goals. That should tell you something important about the type of decision you're considering making (read: it's not the best one).

The best advice? Stop making excuses and capitalize on your opportunities.

ETA: I know you've already studied to get your 164, in that, understandably, makes it more difficult to jump back on the wagon. You should look up a poster on here called crumpetsandtea. She jumped back on the wagon after a 160 something LSAT that she had studied for, and now she's at Northwestern. She even had a much lower GPA than you.

Thanks. But is a Dec '12 retake futile if I want to apply this fall / winter? I don't want to wait until the fall of 2013 to apply and I'm sure I won't be ready in October of this year.

No, if you have everything else in and ready to go, and the moment you get your score back, applying, it won't be too late. I'd say sign up for October anyway and you can always cancel if you feel you're not ready.

Blindmelon wrote:While the T14 doesn't have a monopoly on bigfirm work, they almost do when it comes to clerkships. I'm at BU here, and I believe we have 10 federal clerks upcoming, which puts as at about 3-4% of the class. To get a clerkship from a non-top school, you will need: ludicrous grades (like top 10 students, not %); serious connections; or ties to a less-competitive state...

I'm not too sure about that. After HYS, clerkship placement seems to hover around 10% for most schools in the top 30 or so. If anything, clerkships are more grade-whorish and less prestige conscious.

Blindmelon, I am a rising 2L at BU somewhere around top 15-20%. I wonder if you had any advice on bidding for OCI. What firms to target, etc...

f0bolous wrote:

Blindmelon wrote:While the T14 doesn't have a monopoly on bigfirm work, they almost do when it comes to clerkships. I'm at BU here, and I believe we have 10 federal clerks upcoming, which puts as at about 3-4% of the class. To get a clerkship from a non-top school, you will need: ludicrous grades (like top 10 students, not %); serious connections; or ties to a less-competitive state...

I'm not too sure about that. After HYS, clerkship placement seems to hover around 10% for most schools in the top 30 or so. If anything, clerkships are more grade-whorish and less prestige conscious.

My experience is basically with my local courts - D. Mass. has basically 2 BU, 2 BC per year and the rest are YHC. I think the prestige domination is true for the more competitive districts, maybe less so in less populous areas.

DevilDaze wrote:Blindmelon, I am a rising 2L at BU somewhere around top 15-20%. I wonder if you had any advice on bidding for OCI. What firms to target, etc...

Market?
Law Review/Other Journal?
Work Experience?