Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA Forum

[Paul Campos]

Classic TLS thread

OP: I have the choice between doing something smart and doing something ridiculous. I sense I should pick the former but it's always been my dream to do something ridiculous.

50 identical responses: Do the smart thing.

OP: But it's my dream.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Classic TLS thread

OP: I have the choice between doing something smart and doing something ridiculous. I sense I should pick the former but it's always been my dream to do something ridiculous.

50 identical responses: Do the smart thing.

OP: But it's my dream.

OP, listen to your friend Paul Campos. He's a cool dude. He's trying to help you out.

[20130312]

Classic TLS thread

OP: I have the choice between doing something smart and doing something ridiculous. I sense I should pick the former but it's always been my dream to do something ridiculous.

50 identical responses: Do the smart thing.

OP: But it's my dream.

I'm so glad you're on TLS. OP, listen to Prof. Campos.

[ptush]

:

[bk1]

zero useful information. classic TLS troll. "50 identical responses: Do the smart thing." quantity does not always translate into quality.

to all, make your best possible argument for CLS (even if that's not your choice) and then for NU. Include your background (school you attend, schools you were admitted, fin aid offers you had and chose, stats if possible). That will be most useful for me. your help is GREATLY appreciated.

leave out words like "intelligent," "ridiculous," etc. That's judgement and I am asking for your reasoning. care less about your judgement. I assure you I am fully capable reaching conclusions on my own. thanks again.

You sound like a blast to be around.

[ptush]

:

[ptush]

:

[ptush]

:

[chasgoose]

Classic TLS thread

OP: I have the choice between doing something smart and doing something ridiculous. I sense I should pick the former but it's always been my dream to do something ridiculous.

50 identical responses: Do the smart thing.

OP: But it's my dream.

zero useful information. classic TLS troll. "50 identical responses: Do the smart thing." quantity does not always translate into quality.

to all, make your best possible argument for CLS (even if that's not your choice) and then for NU. Include your background (school you attend, schools you were admitted, fin aid offers you had and chose, stats if possible). That will be most useful for me. your help is GREATLY appreciated.

leave out words like "intelligent," "ridiculous," etc. That's judgement and I am asking for your reasoning. care less about your judgement. I assure you I am fully capable reaching conclusions on my own. thanks again.

Qualifications: I attend NYU. I was only accepted at: CLS ($0 per year), NYU $(10k per year), USC ($20k per year), andCornell (withdrew before scholarship info). I was a high-shifted splitter who applied late, which partially explains my results. USC didn't give me enough money and I chose NYU over CLS because I liked it a bit more, it was slightly cheaper, and I viewed the two schools as equals. Cornell accepted me in mid-May (not off the waitlist, they just took forever and I only kept them in the running because my parents were alums) but I barely considered them.

Things that are the same between NU and CLS: Academically, you are going to be hard-pressed to find a difference between CLS and NU. The differences between the two are very subtle and not as drastic as the differences between HYS and the rest of the T-14 (or Chicago, which is an odd duck among law schools, and the rest of the T-14). CLS might have slightly more name-brand professors, but name-brand professors are different than professors who are good at teaching. Both probably have a lot of professors who are good at teaching. The student bodies are largely going to be comprised of the same people, both are overwhelmingly populated with big law types.

Why CLS: You are more likely than not to get a job, also its easier to get a job with a more prestigious firm (but that is not as important given that a lot of the less prestigious firms still pay market, especially when you factor in the lack of debt at NU). It's in NYC (albeit in Morningside Heights, which if not far from the rest of Manhattan in actual distance does seem kind of far in psychological distance, especially when you are a law student). You can see the beautiful undergrad campus from the somewhat antiseptic JGH. You get to say you went to an Ivy League school (but since that's a football league, its different from actually going there for undergrad). You might have a slightly better chance at getting a clerkship, but its still a very small one. If you are a straight-through you won't have to compete with a class largely comprised of people with (often significant) WE.

Why NU: You won't incur any debt beyond living expenses (which won't be crazy in Chicago if you do it right). You still have a good chance of getting a big law job. You don't have to pay back $200k+ in loans plus interest when you get that big law job. You can start saving/investing your big law salary much sooner after starting your job as opposed to having v. little left after taxes, living expenses, and loan payments (esp. if you work in NYC) and not really starting to save in any meaningful way until your loans are repaid. You aren't required to do big law after graduation to pay off your crippling debt and you have the freedom to use your JD in more ways. You still get to live in a decent city. You don't have $200k+ in debt with no way to repay it if you are one of those CLS grads who don't get a job (there are more than 1 on TLS alone). The building is nicer looking and less bland and depressing. You still go to a T14 school for free.

I don't see how you can choose CLS here. It's not prestigious enough, nor is it special enough to warrant throwing away $200k+. Ultimately your day to day experience is going to be identical to your experience at NU. Also, you are going to be 1 of 400 students in your class. Meaningful interaction with specific professors isn't going to happen unless you kill it academically. Clinics and courses change year to year (especially ones not typically offered at other schools) so that's rarely a good reason to choose a school. You might feel more pressure to perform well at NU, but ultimately you aren't going to be in too much trouble if things don't work out well there, which will make it far less psychologically taxing than CLS will. Knowing that you have significant debt to pay off and that you might not be able to do so is what makes law school hellish. Law school is not like undergrad where you are experiencing a major growing period in your life and its important to find a place that fits you well. In that case, attending your "dream school" makes sense. That is why people are far more likely to deviate from the rankings/money in undergrad than they are in law school. It doesn't make sense to have a "dream law school." They are all fundamentally similar the only difference are their costs and ability to put you in the post-graduate career you want. You shouldn't choose a law school based on any other factor (unless you are choosing between equals). Here Northwestern more than makes up for the fact that its slightly not as good at job placement as CLS by being completely free. It would be completely irrational to attend CLS over NU given the costs involved. You are more than welcome to ignore that and go to CLS, but its not a great use of your money. A lot of us have dreams, most of us don't spend $200k+ that we don't actually have to get them.

[thelawyler]

+1 chasgoose.

OP, I am waitlisted at Columbia and I ED'd there and it is undeniably my first choice, but if I had your options, I would choose NU without thinking twice and it's not even close.

[thelawyler]

Remove UCLA.

If you just want biglaw, go to Northwestern.

I do not just want biglaw. I am not even sure I would want it at all. I may be interested in academia or public interest. but i won't qualify for LRAP at CLS as they take into consideration spouse's income, so the debt will be all on me.

If you're not sure you want Big Law, then why the hell would you take on 200k in debt? Take NU, bro. Seriously, based on reading this entire thread, it's clear that it'd be the smart choice.

I do understand the dream part, but I hope you also have other dreams of what you think your life could look like. And those dreams could potentially be put at risk with 200k debt, no desire for big law, etc. Don't sacrifice all your other dreams for just one dream of a school on your resume.

[ptush]

:

[soj]

Chasgoose is absolutely right.

You'll get over the prestige and Ivy League thing by October. What remains is the marginal benefit that is completely outweighed by the benefits of NU.

[ptush]

:

[JasonR]

Classic TLS thread

OP: I have the choice between doing something smart and doing something ridiculous. I sense I should pick the former but it's always been my dream to do something ridiculous.

50 identical responses: Do the smart thing.

OP: But it's my dream.

zero useful information. classic TLS troll. "50 identical responses: Do the smart thing." quantity does not always translate into quality.

to all, make your best possible argument for CLS (even if that's not your choice) and then for NU. Include your background (school you attend, schools you were admitted, fin aid offers you had and chose, stats if possible). That will be most useful for me. your help is GREATLY appreciated.

leave out words like "intelligent," "ridiculous," etc. That's judgement and I am asking for your reasoning. care less about your judgement. I assure you I am fully capable reaching conclusions on my own. thanks again.

Qualifications: I attend NYU. I was only accepted at: CLS ($0 per year), NYU $(10k per year), USC ($20k per year), andCornell (withdrew before scholarship info). I was a high-shifted splitter who applied late, which partially explains my results. USC didn't give me enough money and I chose NYU over CLS because I liked it a bit more, it was slightly cheaper, and I viewed the two schools as equals. Cornell accepted me in mid-May (not off the waitlist, they just took forever and I only kept them in the running because my parents were alums) but I barely considered them.

Things that are the same between NU and CLS: Academically, you are going to be hard-pressed to find a difference between CLS and NU. The differences between the two are very subtle and not as drastic as the differences between HYS and the rest of the T-14 (or Chicago, which is an odd duck among law schools, and the rest of the T-14). CLS might have slightly more name-brand professors, but name-brand professors are different than professors who are good at teaching. Both probably have a lot of professors who are good at teaching. The student bodies are largely going to be comprised of the same people, both are overwhelmingly populated with big law types.

Why CLS: You are more likely than not to get a job, also its easier to get a job with a more prestigious firm (but that is not as important given that a lot of the less prestigious firms still pay market, especially when you factor in the lack of debt at NU). It's in NYC (albeit in Morningside Heights, which if not far from the rest of Manhattan in actual distance does seem kind of far in psychological distance, especially when you are a law student). You can see the beautiful undergrad campus from the somewhat antiseptic JGH. You get to say you went to an Ivy League school (but since that's a football league, its different from actually going there for undergrad). You might have a slightly better chance at getting a clerkship, but its still a very small one. If you are a straight-through you won't have to compete with a class largely comprised of people with (often significant) WE.

Why NU: You won't incur any debt beyond living expenses (which won't be crazy in Chicago if you do it right). You still have a good chance of getting a big law job. You don't have to pay back $200k+ in loans plus interest when you get that big law job. You can start saving/investing your big law salary much sooner after starting your job as opposed to having v. little left after taxes, living expenses, and loan payments (esp. if you work in NYC) and not really starting to save in any meaningful way until your loans are repaid. You aren't required to do big law after graduation to pay off your crippling debt and you have the freedom to use your JD in more ways. You still get to live in a decent city. You don't have $200k+ in debt with no way to repay it if you are one of those CLS grads who don't get a job (there are more than 1 on TLS alone). The building is nicer looking and less bland and depressing. You still go to a T14 school for free.

I don't see how you can choose CLS here. It's not prestigious enough, nor is it special enough to warrant throwing away $200k+. Ultimately your day to day experience is going to be identical to your experience at NU. Also, you are going to be 1 of 400 students in your class. Meaningful interaction with specific professors isn't going to happen unless you kill it academically. Clinics and courses change year to year (especially ones not typically offered at other schools) so that's rarely a good reason to choose a school. You might feel more pressure to perform well at NU, but ultimately you aren't going to be in too much trouble if things don't work out well there, which will make it far less psychologically taxing than CLS will. Knowing that you have significant debt to pay off and that you might not be able to do so is what makes law school hellish. Law school is not like undergrad where you are experiencing a major growing period in your life and its important to find a place that fits you well. In that case, attending your "dream school" makes sense. That is why people are far more likely to deviate from the rankings/money in undergrad than they are in law school. It doesn't make sense to have a "dream law school." They are all fundamentally similar the only difference are their costs and ability to put you in the post-graduate career you want. You shouldn't choose a law school based on any other factor (unless you are choosing between equals). Here Northwestern more than makes up for the fact that its slightly not as good at job placement as CLS by being completely free. It would be completely irrational to attend CLS over NU given the costs involved. You are more than welcome to ignore that and go to CLS, but its not a great use of your money. A lot of us have dreams, most of us don't spend $200k+ that we don't actually have to get them.

+1

You are some kind of saint for writing all of that for him.

[bk1]

You are some kind of saint for writing all of that for him.

lol exactly. The moment he started making demands I had zero fucks left to give.

[ptush]

:

[thelawyler]

First of all, LOL.

+1 chasgoose.

OP, I am waitlisted at Columbia and I ED'd there and it is undeniably my first choice, but if I had your options, I would choose NU without thinking twice and it's not even close.

ED? Doesn't it mean that had they admitted you to Columbia through ED, you would have been required to withdraw from other schools?

And if they accepted me before they deferred me, yes, I would would have to go. But with a deferral, that ED contract is now no longer binding. So if I get off the WL, I am free to choose.

[chasgoose]

You are some kind of saint for writing all of that for him.

lol exactly. The moment he started making demands I had zero fucks left to give.

honestly. you posted 15953 times. why do you spam this one as well? I did not demand and am very thankful for useful suggestions. This is not just for me. Others OLs will find it helpful, I am sure. Please do not spam. You do not seem to have anything to contribute.

You do realize he's a moderator right? You are asking for a banning. This thread should be over. If you are hoping someone is going to tell you that you should choose CLS, it's not going to happen. Columbia cannot possibly complement anyone's career goals and interests $200k better than NU. There is no way to economically or rationally justify the choice for CLS here. You can keep waiting for that one person to tell you to go to CLS, but I highly doubt they will come.To all future TLSer's who see this, if you get a full ride to NU, you should take it unless you get HYS or another T14 with a hefty scholly.

/thread

[timbs4339]

I'm a CLS 3L who took CLS at 75K over NU with 135K and a year long deferral requirement. In retrospect, I should have taken NU no question. This has nothing to do with the students, faculty, clinics, location, of the schools and everything to do with job prospects and debt.

[kaveman]

OP: Forget all these haters man. Based on this thread, you're actually correct to be choosing between Columbia and UCLA. Columbia because it will provide the best prospects for employment at the bottom of the class. UCLA because Los Angeles is where idiots thrive.

[JasonR]

OP: Forget all these haters man. Based on this thread, you're actually correct to be choosing between Columbia and UCLA. Columbia because it will provide the best prospects for employment at the bottom of the class. UCLA because Los Angeles is where idiots thrive.

[sweetlou]

OP: UCLA because Los Angeles is where idiots thrive.

I'm pretty sure you're just bitter that you live in Ohio kaveman... or Pittsburgh, Detroit, Minneapolis, or some crappy east coast city like Boston or Baltimore.... You're not from New York (at least not the city) because New Yorker's wouldn't make a passive aggressive attack on LA, their city is too impressive for that. You're not from Miami because despite the cities' inferiority complex in comparison to LA the attack wouldn't be aimed at idiots as Miami has plenty of those (or at least is thought to have). You're not from another CA city because they would have far better points (and a better knowledge base) with which to attack LA.

I'm assuming your attack on LA was aimed at perceptions of Hollywood, however, remember we are all planning on being lawyers and practicing law in LA isn't so different from other urban areas (the only increased connection to hollywood outside of a few divorce lawyers and estate planners is entertainment law) and given the fact that the OP doesn't seem to be interested in entertainment law that connection is invalid.

Yes kaveman (a fitting name if it refers to your level of intellect) I am of course from LA and if your perception were true (which it isn't, at least not within the legal sector) then you should move here because that would mean that LA is the one place you could actually thrive.

[Tiago Splitter]

Sweetlou coming out of the woodwork to defend LA.

OP I had a hell of a time deciding between Columbia and Northwestern with 60K. If Northwestern had instead offered 150K it would have been easy.

[otnemem]

I had 90k at NU and 40K at Columbia and ended up picking Columbia only because I really want to end up in NYC. If the difference had been any more than that, I likely would have gone to NU. This is no contest.