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Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:55 pm
by evolved306
So basically I am not sure if I should stick with Georgetown and a $20,000 a year scholarship or accept Columbia's offer off their reserve list. I like the idea of living in DC more than New York, and I have a friend who is currently living in D.C that I would like to be with.
I see myself going into litigation or political consulting/legal consulting for politicians or politically oriented groups. I could also see myself doing business law for small or entrepreneurial tech start ups. Additionally, I could see myself as a lobbyist for renewable energy firms or technology/scientific research oriented businesses. Obviously I have a lot of exploring to do and will focus on a more narrow path once I learn more about all these different career choices and learn more about myself and what I like to do.
I would be willing to do corporate law for a few years to pay off debt if I must.
So given my career preferences, city preference, scholarships, and everything else what would be a better choice?
I feel like many of you will quickly jump to Columbia because of ranking, but remember that I can still be very successful with a Georgetown Law degree.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:01 pm
by SaintFond
Columbia. Georgetown simply isn't offering you enough money to pass up Columbia. They aren't offering you any need based aid on top of the 60K are they? Plus, Columbia is almost auto BigLaw, whereas G-town is maybe 30% BigLaw, and you WILL need BigLaw for at least a few years regardless of where you go.
How long do you have to respond to Columbia? Maybe you can emergency negotiate with G-town?
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:10 pm
by top30man
SaintFond wrote:Columbia. Georgetown simply isn't offering you enough money to pass up Columbia. They aren't offering you any need based aid on top of the 60K are they? Plus, Columbia is almost auto BigLaw, whereas G-town is maybe 30% BigLaw, and you WILL need BigLaw for at least a few years regardless of where you go.
How long do you have to respond to Columbia? Maybe you can emergency negotiate with G-town?
I agree with this. That's not enough to lose columbia.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:52 pm
by lawyerwannabe
evolved306 wrote:I feel like many of you will quickly jump to Columbia because of ranking, but remember that I can still be very successful with a Georgetown Law degree.
A person can be very successful from TT and TTT and TTTT schools. The reason people go to the better ranked schools is to mitigate risk. A much higher percentage of people will be successful from a T14 than a TT, etc. In this instance, the gap is much smaller than T14 vs. TT but, nonetheless, the gap is still probably 20+%. IMO, the security of a CLS degree is worth over $60k more than a Georgetown degree.
Note: I am defining "success" as BigLaw + AIII Clerkships essentially; many of your career goals seem to be tangentially related to just who you know so this may or may not be influenced with this better employment.
HTH.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:52 pm
by JasonR
SaintFond wrote:Columbia. Georgetown simply isn't offering you enough money to pass up Columbia. They aren't offering you any need based aid on top of the 60K are they? Plus, Columbia is almost auto BigLaw, whereas G-town is maybe 30% BigLaw, and you WILL need BigLaw for at least a few years regardless of where you go.
+1
Easy choice.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:55 pm
by dbt
I'd actually say Georgetown, for three reasons. (i) $60k is a ton of money. This becomes apparent as you get closer to graduation and start thinking about how long it will take to pay down your debt. (ii) Your interests actually sound perfect for Georgetown. (iii) Whereas you got off the reserve list at Columbia, you got in and got a nice scholarship at Gtown. It's not a definite thing, but my guess is you'll perform better at Georgetown than Columbia (though I'd have to know your numbers to have a better idea).
I'd leverage to try and get a bit more out of Gtown.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:58 pm
by lawyerwannabe
dbt wrote:I'd actually say Georgetown, for three reasons. (i) $60k is a ton of money. This becomes apparent as you get closer to graduation and start thinking about how long it will take to pay down your debt. (ii) Your interests actually sound perfect for Georgetown. (iii) Whereas you got off the reserve list at Columbia, you got in and got a nice scholarship at Gtown. It's not a definite thing, but my guess is you'll perform better at Georgetown than Columbia (though I'd have to know your numbers to have a better idea).
(ii) is a good point; but you cannot really be serious about (iii).
Yes, his incoming credentials might be better than many of his classmates but this really has little effect on his 1L performance (we do not need to get into the "well, I am going to go to a TT because I will be ranked first in my class instead of T14 because I will probably be median" debate because it is simply not how law school works).
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:03 pm
by dbt
lawyerwannabe wrote:dbt wrote:I'd actually say Georgetown, for three reasons. (i) $60k is a ton of money. This becomes apparent as you get closer to graduation and start thinking about how long it will take to pay down your debt. (ii) Your interests actually sound perfect for Georgetown. (iii) Whereas you got off the reserve list at Columbia, you got in and got a nice scholarship at Gtown. It's not a definite thing, but my guess is you'll perform better at Georgetown than Columbia (though I'd have to know your numbers to have a better idea).
(ii) is a good point; but you cannot really be serious about (iii).
Yes, his incoming credentials might be better than many of his classmates but this really has little effect on his 1L performance (we do not need to get into the "well, I am going to go to a TT because I will be ranked first in my class instead of T14 because I will probably be median" debate because it is simply not how law school works).
I am serious about (iii) but it's a more tenuous claim. I don't think saying something is simply not how law school works will get you anywhere. I do know as a transfer that putting in similar effort I achieved slightly lower grades overall when I moved up, and I can say the same for some other transfers (and at different schools) too. Could be different factors at work, but I think it's pretty silly to argue the student who got a materially higher GPA and higher LSAT than you might not also beat you on law school exams.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:16 pm
by SaintFond
At Columbia he doesn't necessarily have to be top of his class to get BigLaw; he can just ride on the prestttige. At Georgetown, he will probably have to be somewhere decently above median.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:17 pm
by roaringeagle
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:18 pm
by moneybagsphd
LOL, Yale is 15. List fail.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:19 pm
by SaintFond
moneybagsphd wrote:
LOL, Yale is 15. List fail.
Clerkships, bro.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:21 pm
by roaringeagle
moneybagsphd wrote:
LOL, Yale is 15. List fail.
yeah but anyone with half a brain knows that Yale grads are doing all types of shit like clerkships etc. This list is pretty accurate and it used to have much larger percentages from the top schools. I remember 4-5 years ago UVA was like 65%. Nowadays it is such a crapshoot.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:38 pm
by lawyerwannabe
dbt wrote:lawyerwannabe wrote:dbt wrote:I'd actually say Georgetown, for three reasons. (i) $60k is a ton of money. This becomes apparent as you get closer to graduation and start thinking about how long it will take to pay down your debt. (ii) Your interests actually sound perfect for Georgetown. (iii) Whereas you got off the reserve list at Columbia, you got in and got a nice scholarship at Gtown. It's not a definite thing, but my guess is you'll perform better at Georgetown than Columbia (though I'd have to know your numbers to have a better idea).
(ii) is a good point; but you cannot really be serious about (iii).
Yes, his incoming credentials might be better than many of his classmates but this really has little effect on his 1L performance (we do not need to get into the "well, I am going to go to a TT because I will be ranked first in my class instead of T14 because I will probably be median" debate because it is simply not how law school works).
I am serious about (iii) but it's a more tenuous claim. I don't think saying something is simply not how law school works will get you anywhere. I do know as a transfer that putting in similar effort I achieved slightly lower grades overall when I moved up, and I can say the same for some other transfers (and at different schools) too. Could be different factors at work, but I think it's pretty silly to argue the student who got a materially higher GPA and higher LSAT than you might not also beat you on law school exams.
I may even be willing to admit that if your stats are materially higher than the probability of doing better is obviously greater. But there is no material difference numerically between GULC and CLS students.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:39 pm
by sundance95
JasonR wrote:SaintFond wrote:Columbia. Georgetown simply isn't offering you enough money to pass up Columbia. They aren't offering you any need based aid on top of the 60K are they? Plus, Columbia is almost auto BigLaw, whereas G-town is maybe 30% BigLaw, and you WILL need BigLaw for at least a few years regardless of where you go.
+1
Easy choice.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:06 pm
by chasgoose
dbt wrote:I'd actually say Georgetown, for three reasons. (i) $60k is a ton of money. This becomes apparent as you get closer to graduation and start thinking about how long it will take to pay down your debt. (ii) Your interests actually sound perfect for Georgetown. (iii) Whereas you got off the reserve list at Columbia, you got in and got a nice scholarship at Gtown. It's not a definite thing, but my guess is you'll perform better at Georgetown than Columbia (though I'd have to know your numbers to have a better idea).
I'd leverage to try and get a bit more out of Gtown.
$60k is a ton of money, but $150k+ with no job after graduation is even worse. Yes, if OP goes to CLS and kills it, he may regret not just going to Georgetown and saving the $60k. If OP goes to CLS and ends up around median or below (I'm assuming he will do equally well at Georgetown or CLS) he's going to be very glad he went there. Going to Georgetown is a gamble, the payoff is $60k saved, the consequences are $150k in debt that will be very difficult to repay.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:17 pm
by KevinP
Columbia. Because lawyer outcomes tend to be bimodal, 60k scholly isn't enough to cover you if you strike out at Biglaw/LRAP.
FWIW, I chose CLS over GULC with an even bigger difference in money.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:39 am
by JasonR
dbt wrote:I'd actually say Georgetown, for three reasons. (i) $60k is a ton of money. This becomes apparent as you get closer to graduation and start thinking about how long it will take to pay down your debt. (ii) Your interests actually sound perfect for Georgetown. (iii) Whereas you got off the reserve list at Columbia, you got in and got a nice scholarship at Gtown. It's not a definite thing, but my guess is you'll perform better at Georgetown than Columbia (though I'd have to know your numbers to have a better idea).
I'd leverage to try and get a bit more out of Gtown.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:53 am
by stabiloboss
out of curiosity, if OP had $60k at Mich or Cornell or Duke, would responses still be the same?
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:03 am
by Doorkeeper
SaintFond wrote:Columbia. Georgetown simply isn't offering you enough money to pass up Columbia. They aren't offering you any need based aid on top of the 60K are they? Plus, Columbia is almost auto BigLaw, whereas G-town is maybe 30% BigLaw, and you WILL need BigLaw for at least a few years regardless of where you go.
I agree with this.
If you're taking out loans, 60k in scholarships still means you're paying north of 150k. You're going to need biglaw to cover that. Might as well maximize your chance of biglaw. I think the difference in biglaw placement between Columbia (over 50%) and Georgetown (30%) is enough to warrant 60k more.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:32 am
by Tiago Splitter
stabiloboss wrote:out of curiosity, if OP had $60k at Mich or Cornell or Duke, would responses still be the same?
Mine would be since I made almost exactly that decision, but there would likely be a few more people pushing for those non-Georgetown T-14s.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:36 am
by CanadianWolf
Columbia.
If unhappy after one year at Columbia, you might be able to transfer down to Georgetown & , due to paying sticker at Columbia, qualify for need based aid from Georgetown.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:04 am
by SaintFond
stabiloboss wrote:out of curiosity, if OP had $60k at Mich or Cornell or Duke, would responses still be the same?
Yeah. I'd only take Chicago or NYU at 60K over Columbia. The sub-T6 schools generally have comparable placement rates, and ITE I don't think 60K at any of them beats Columbia. Georgetown gets kind of a bad rep because it's the bottom of the T14 and a degree mill, but it's still a good school and the huge class sizes means good alumni network. Consider: Georgetown only places 30% ITE, but 30% at Georgetown means ~200 grads. Plus, there's the fact that Georgetown legit sounds like it might be a good fit for OP; which is why it's too bad that placement rates ultimately trump everything.
Columbia is one of only a handful of schools still worth sticker ITE. If OP can get like low 6 figures from Georgetown (unlikely), Georgetown would most likely beat Columbia. Heck even at 90K Georgetown might be worthwhile over Columbia if OP is dead set on Georgetown. But not at 60.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:15 pm
by evolved306
It might be helpful to note that my parents will be helping with about 40K over the 3 years at Georgetown. That also applies to anywhere I go.
It might be important to also note that I had previously chosen Georgetown with scholarship over a full tuition scholarship at UNC (in-state) and Wake Forest. Well, at least within a grand of full tuition (15,000 a year at UNC and 36,000 a year at Wake Forest). No Grant money or need based aid btw.
Re: Georgetown Law with 20,000 a year or Columbia with no money
Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:18 pm
by ben4847
Columbia no question.