Top Law Schools

Ok, at this point this is hypothetical, but may become a possibility with little time to decide. I could essentially graduate BC with little/no debt and my goal is to work in Boston. I'd like Boston biglaw and the $$ that brings, but due to the small cost I wouldn't be devastated (mentally or financially) if I went to BC and missed out, as long as I still had a legal job making a decent living.

UPenn may be a new option and assuming no aid could run me between 135-150k more than BC.

In the back of my mind (though I know I shouldn't consider it) is that I'm on the Harvard wait list, and I'd obviously accept if by some miracle I'm admitted. Sticking with BC would allow me to accept an offer from Harvard through August, while the planning for moving for UPenn would limit the time in which I could accept an offer from Harvard. Due to living situation, Harvard, if admitted, would cost less than Penn.

So, essentially, the question is, if the goal is to work in Boston, is UPenn worth 150k more than BC?

To answer a couple questions I know will come:
1. I don't plan on sharing my numbers, but I know if I did the response would be to retake/reapply - I haven't completely ruled that out yet, but a response of retake/reapply is not helpful here.
2. Yes, there should be other options, but there are not (other than more T14 wait lists and UCLA/USC with $$, but which make little sense for my goals). See #1

I don't think Penn is worth 150k more than BC for Boston plus the added benefit of waiting for Harvard is there.

2014 wrote:I don't think Penn is worth 150k more than BC for Boston plus the added benefit of waiting for Harvard is there.

That's what I'm thinking, though their employment numbers are great (and tempting).

Anyone have an argument for Penn in this case?

If you have Boston ties, it's definitely going to be easier to get a job in Boston from Penn than it is from BC. Penn also makes it far easier to get a job in NYC or elsewhere if Boston doesn't work out, since you will still have a decent amount of debt coming out of BC (if you truly would rather have Boston than any big law job at all, that is moot). I could be wrong, but you probably have to be top 20% to get big law in Boston out of BC, whereas, at Penn above median is probably fine, closer to top third and you are good. If that 20-30% boost is worth 150k (which, since it makes getting a big law job in Boston less of a crapshoot and more of a 50/50 shot, not to mention that you will almost definitely get a big law job somewhere from Penn if you are above median and not crazy, it very well might be). If you are willing to risk it at BC and take a non-big law job in Boston and slowly pay down your somewhat significant debt, then go there. If you want to feel more comfortable about getting a big law job, even in Boston, go to Penn. It's easier to pay down sticker at Penn with big law than $100k from BC with half the salary or less.

If you don't have Boston ties, then you pretty much have to take BC for any shot at Boston.

Also, I wouldn't really factor Harvard into your calculation. Unless you have a 3.8+ GPA and above a 170, Harvard isn't happening, in past years most HLS admits have been people with high GPA's but lower LSATs. Given that Penn at sticker and BC are your main options at this point, I doubt that you have a 3.8+ GPA so I wouldn't waste too much time considering that.

Well it depends. If your second choice after Boston biglaw is NYC biglaw then Penn might be worth it (although still a tough choice). If your second choice behind Boston biglaw is any legal job in Boston then I think BC is probably the way to go.

how much $$$ is money?

I think too often on TLS people overlook just how horrible working biglaw really is. I know you want biglaw, but graduating with little/no debt from BC is not a bad position to be in. If you miss the biglaw boat, at least you won't have soul-crushing debt. Contrary to popular belief, there are actually other legal jobs out there.

On the other hand, Penn at sticker will force you to become a slave to biglaw, and though you say now that's what you want, you may end up regretting this later but unable to do anything about it. And even at a fantastic school like Penn, there are still going to be a few below median students striking out. With that kind of debt, that's a truly terrifying prospect.

And though you're right that Harvard shouldn't be a factor, BC does give you the option to consider a miracle Harvard acceptance. I wouldn't use this to influence your decision at all... More just a small bonus to consider if you decide on BC.

hellothisisme wrote:I think too often on TLS people overlook just how horrible working biglaw really is. I know you want biglaw, but graduating with little/no debt from BC is not a bad position to be in. If you miss the biglaw boat, at least you won't have soul-crushing debt. Contrary to popular belief, there are actually other legal jobs out there.

On the other hand, Penn at sticker will force you to become a slave to biglaw, and though you say now that's what you want, you may end up regretting this later but unable to do anything about it. And even at a fantastic school like Penn, there are still going to be a few below median students striking out. With that kind of debt, that's a truly terrifying prospect.

And though you're right that Harvard shouldn't be a factor, BC does give you the option to consider a miracle Harvard acceptance. I wouldn't use this to influence your decision at all... More just a small bonus to consider if you decide on BC.

Agreed, but it sounds like OP will still have $100k in debt or more after graduating from BC. That is not a small amount of debt that is easy to pay off with a non-big law salary... I don't like to start talking about little debt until we are under $50k

Just to clarify, COL for me for BC (or Harvard) would be essentially 0. Cost of BC (probably even including books) would be <$40k and my savings plus a very small no interest loan from family would cover it.

I won't be devastated if I go to BC and strike out on big law and end up in Boston making a decent living (I'll define that as 60k+). I will be devastated if I go to Penn and strike out on big law. What are my odds of graduating a school like BC and not even landing full time legal employment?

In actuality, with interest, Penn will run me more than 150k over BC and maybe closer to 200k, though I may get some help from family.

JournalismToLaw wrote:Ok, at this point this is hypothetical

Stopped here.

InGoodFaith wrote:

JournalismToLaw wrote:Ok, at this point this is hypothetical

Stopped here.

The BC situation isn't hypothetical. The UPenn situation isn't yet on the table, but a very realistic possibility to come soon (you'll have to take my word for it - without going into detail I'm basing this on correspondence I've had and what I've seen happen in the wait list thread) with very little time to decide.

chasgoose wrote: Also, I wouldn't really factor Harvard into your calculation. Unless you have a 3.8+ GPA and above a 170, Harvard isn't happening, in past years most HLS admits have been people with high GPA's but lower LSATs. Given that Penn at sticker and BC are your main options at this point, I doubt that you have a 3.8+ GPA so I wouldn't waste too much time considering that.

Reverse-splitter applying in January can have that effect - which is also why I haven't completely taken retake/re-apply off the table (at the same time I do fear wasting another year in a crap, low-paying job that has nothing to do with law and potentially doing worse on a re-take when in reality I'm not that disappointed with my options).

JournalismToLaw wrote:Just to clarify, COL for me for BC (or Harvard) would be essentially 0. Cost of BC (probably even including books) would be <$40k and my savings plus a very small no interest loan from family would cover it.

I won't be devastated if I go to BC and strike out on big law and end up in Boston making a decent living (I'll define that as 60k+). I will be devastated if I go to Penn and strike out on big law. What are my odds of graduating a school like BC and not even landing full time legal employment?

In actuality, with interest, Penn will run me more than 150k over BC and maybe closer to 200k, though I may get some help from family.

BC. You want Boston and can graduate with no debt. Easy. (If this was clear from the beginning, I don't think many would have said Penn.)

Boston College because it's your only option, great scholarship, you can live at home & your target market is Boston.

Elston Gunn wrote: BC. You want Boston and can graduate with no debt. Easy. (If this was clear from the beginning, I don't think many would have said Penn.)

It should've been if people read the second sentence of the first post.

But, yeah, that's certainly where I'm leaning. Penn's employment numbers just make it hard for me to write them off without giving it a little thought.

JournalismToLaw wrote:Just to clarify, COL for me for BC (or Harvard) would be essentially 0. Cost of BC (probably even including books) would be <$40k and my savings plus a very small no interest loan from family would cover it.

I won't be devastated if I go to BC and strike out on big law and end up in Boston making a decent living (I'll define that as 60k+). I will be devastated if I go to Penn and strike out on big law. What are my odds of graduating a school like BC and not even landing full time legal employment?

In actuality, with interest, Penn will run me more than 150k over BC and maybe closer to 200k, though I may get some help from family.

Then you should withdraw from Penn. No reason to go there if you are Boston or bust and can go to BC for < $40k

chasgoose wrote:

JournalismToLaw wrote:Just to clarify, COL for me for BC (or Harvard) would be essentially 0. Cost of BC (probably even including books) would be <$40k and my savings plus a very small no interest loan from family would cover it.

I won't be devastated if I go to BC and strike out on big law and end up in Boston making a decent living (I'll define that as 60k+). I will be devastated if I go to Penn and strike out on big law. What are my odds of graduating a school like BC and not even landing full time legal employment?

In actuality, with interest, Penn will run me more than 150k over BC and maybe closer to 200k, though I may get some help from family.

Then you should withdraw from Penn. No reason to go there if you are Boston or bust and can go to BC for < $40k

Thanks. That would be my plan in the likely case no aid is offered from Penn.

JournalismToLaw wrote:

chasgoose wrote:

JournalismToLaw wrote:Just to clarify, COL for me for BC (or Harvard) would be essentially 0. Cost of BC (probably even including books) would be <$40k and my savings plus a very small no interest loan from family would cover it.

I won't be devastated if I go to BC and strike out on big law and end up in Boston making a decent living (I'll define that as 60k+). I will be devastated if I go to Penn and strike out on big law. What are my odds of graduating a school like BC and not even landing full time legal employment?

In actuality, with interest, Penn will run me more than 150k over BC and maybe closer to 200k, though I may get some help from family.

Then you should withdraw from Penn. No reason to go there if you are Boston or bust and can go to BC for < $40k

Thanks. That would be my plan in the likely case no aid is offered from Penn.

I wouldn't even bother waiting to hear back. Penn would have to offer you at least $50k in aid to make it worth it for you to even consider them. That isn't going to happen.

chasgoose wrote: I wouldn't even bother waiting to hear back. Penn would have to offer you at least $50k in aid to make it worth it for you to even consider them. That isn't going to happen.

Well, I got my answer already - no aid. Thanks for the advice everyone.

/thread