Top Law Schools

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 pm**

I just got accepted from hold at NU! This is absolutely my dream law school. However, before I was accepted, I decided to attend UC Davis because of its proximity to SF and the fact that they gave me $30,000 for this year only (will likely stay the same or increase the following years). I would like to ultimately end up in SF, but I would not mind Chicago either. I don't have any undergrad debt or really debt of any kind. Please help! Thanks!

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 6:30 pm**

Do you want to do big law? Are you in-state or out of state?

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 6:36 pm**

Yes, I would like to do big law for a few years, but I am realistic about my chances. I am in state for Davis.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 6:37 pm**

elizcbeth wrote:Yes, I would like to do big law for a few years, but I am realistic about my chances. I am in state for Davis.

NU.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 6:39 pm**

Granted there is a lot of risk with that sticker price debt, I think if you truly want biglaw (and wouldn't mind if it was not in SF) NU is the easy choice here.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 6:52 pm**

^Very good perspective. Thank you!

But 240K vs 90K at graduation? Makes me cringe just thinking about it.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 7:00 pm**

elizcbeth wrote:^Very good perspective. Thank you!

But 240K vs 90K at graduation? Makes me cringe just thinking about it.

Yeah, but it would be hard to pay off 90K with no job from Davis. Tough choice here- NU at sticker is scary, but they place over 50% into biglaw. Try asking Davis for more money

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 7:02 pm**

elizcbeth wrote:I just got accepted from hold at NU! This is absolutely my dream law school. However, before I was accepted, I decided to attend UC Davis because of its proximity to SF and the fact that they gave me $30,000 for this year only (will likely stay the same or increase the following years). I would like to ultimately end up in SF, but I would not mind Chicago either. I don't have any undergrad debt or really debt of any kind. Please help! Thanks!

Elizcbeth!!!!

AWESOME to see you got in (I'm ~whimsical from LSN, we have sorta been chatting on each other's walls, hahaha).

I personally would choose NU for its employment stats, especially if you want biglaw. With that said though, debt is freaking scary...it's a tough choice. Would it be possible to try to get more money from Davis now that you're in at NU?

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 7:03 pm**

Northwestern is the clear choice if targeting biglaw. Your concern about debt is understandable, however. Nevertheless, NU & UC-Davis are in different worlds regarding placement opportunities. If you do decide to attend UC-Davis, then your Northwestern acceptance may get you more scholarship money if you ask. NU is the better choice if you can stomach dealing with the debt.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 7:13 pm**

I would love to stomach the cost of sticker at NU. I'm just afraid of being another stereotypical law school casualty: Barista with debt the size of a small house except I still don't have anywhere to live. Does that even happen at NU? Does anyone have a good link for NU employment statistics besides what's on the website? Thank you everyone!

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 7:23 pm**

elizcbeth wrote:I would love to stomach the cost of sticker at NU. I'm just afraid of being another stereotypical law school casualty: Barista with debt the size of a small house except I still don't have anywhere to live. Does that even happen at NU? Does anyone have a good link for NU employment statistics besides what's on the website? Thank you everyone!

This scenario is much more likely if you attend Davis.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 7:37 pm**

elizcbeth wrote:I would love to stomach the cost of sticker at NU. I'm just afraid of being another stereotypical law school casualty: Barista with debt the size of a small house except I still don't have anywhere to live. Does that even happen at NU? Does anyone have a good link for NU employment statistics besides what's on the website? Thank you everyone!

I think the data on the website is pretty reliable. The 2010 data matches up with what is reported to the ABA, and the figures on 100+ attorney firm placement matches up closely with what the NLJ reports based on firm surveys. Beyond that, it matches up with what I've experienced as a 3L (who has seen C/O 2011 when it was the worst and now C/O 2013 which seems to have recovered a bit).

That said, being a barista with debt the size of a small house is definitely a possibility. For C/O 2011, about a quarter of the class ended up with a pretty bad outcome (not barista-ing, but working at small firms for $70k): http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=181723. This ranges from about 20% - 35% for the rest of the T14. That said, a similar calculation at Davis yields (http://www.law.ucdavis.edu/prospective/ ... stics.html): 50-60% of people either at small firms, unemployed, in law-school funded temporary jobs, etc.

Meanwhile at Davis 13% of folks got a big firm or federal clerkship, while at NU it was 60%.

I think C/O 2012-2013 has been somewhat better. I'd say a 75-80% of people who try for big law at OCI got something.

In your shoes I'd go to NU. $90k is a lot of debt and your expected outcome at Davis is making $60k at a small firm.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 4:07 pm**

Check it out:
1. Loan amounts are after interest. After interest has compounded (?)(during school), 240K and 90K are the amounts I will start paying back.
2. Incomes are before tax.
3. Additional payment per month was calculated assuming I only need $3000 to live on. I live off of <$2000 now. I can do $3000 for a couple of years.
4. Paid off date= how long it will take me to pay it off after making those additional payments per month.
5. GPA required = ~Class rank. Loosely figured. Basically guessing.
6. Likelihood comes from published employment figures. UC Davis was less obvious.
7. Likely means how likely I am to get that GPA and that income. Conservative.
8. Assumed that I will be miserable in Big Law.
9. I am also ok with paying aggresively for ~3 years and then very slowly after that.

So... now what do you think?

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 4:35 pm**

Are you certain that the 30K from Davis will be there in future years? If not you should cross them off immediately.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 5:18 pm**

elizcbeth wrote:Check it out:
1. Loan amounts are after interest. After interest has compounded (?)(during school), 240K and 90K are the amounts I will start paying back.
2. Incomes are before tax.
3. Additional payment per month was calculated assuming I only need $3000 to live on. I live off of <$2000 now. I can do $3000 for a couple of years.
4. Paid off date= how long it will take me to pay it off after making those additional payments per month.
5. GPA required = ~Class rank. Loosely figured. Basically guessing.
6. Likelihood comes from published employment figures. UC Davis was less obvious.
7. Likely means how likely I am to get that GPA and that income. Conservative.
8. Assumed that I will be miserable in Big Law.
9. I am also ok with paying aggresively for ~3 years and then very slowly after that.

So... now what do you think?

Completely nonsensical. How do you play to make an $8k/month loan payment on $160k when your monthly take-home is like $8-9k?

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 5:37 pm**

rayiner wrote:
elizcbeth wrote:Check it out:
1. Loan amounts are after interest. After interest has compounded (?)(during school), 240K and 90K are the amounts I will start paying back.
2. Incomes are before tax.
3. Additional payment per month was calculated assuming I only need $3000 to live on. I live off of <$2000 now. I can do $3000 for a couple of years.
4. Paid off date= how long it will take me to pay it off after making those additional payments per month.
5. GPA required = ~Class rank. Loosely figured. Basically guessing.
6. Likelihood comes from published employment figures. UC Davis was less obvious.
7. Likely means how likely I am to get that GPA and that income. Conservative.
8. Assumed that I will be miserable in Big Law.
9. I am also ok with paying aggresively for ~3 years and then very slowly after that.

So... now what do you think?

Completely nonsensical. How do you play to make an $8k/month loan payment on $160k when your monthly take-home is like $8-9k?

Haha very good point. I honestly dont know anything about taxes so I left it out for ease. What would be a good percentage to use in order to calculate take home pay? 20%?

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 5:47 pm**

elizcbeth wrote:I honestly dont know anything about taxes so I left it out for ease. What would be a good percentage to use in order to calculate take home pay? 20%?

Don't go to law school. Go do something else for a few years.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 5:58 pm**

Scrap the GPA column and seriously adjust your likelihood & likely columns. 47% of NU grads end up in some sort of biglaw (--LinkRemoved--) which means at LEAST the top 47% of the class will end up with 160k/yr income (less for smaller markets).

I get where you're going with this and applaud you for trying to make a holistic decision that's not just about biglaw or $$. But I'm not sure if that's something you're going to be able to figure out quantitatively, at least not without some serious adjustments to this model. I also don't think the binary approach to "job satisfaction" column as "biglaw/not biglaw" is helpful, since it's possible you'd rather have biglaw hours/stress over a less challenging/fulfilling career with 40K/yr income and worse advancement/exit options. And if you're assuming the 40K/yr job would be something PI/govt, then you'd have to seriously adjust your "likelihood" estimate, since those jobs are difficult to get.

It sounds like you're looking for a happy medium where you don't have to live the biglaw life (at least not long-term) but you'd like to not have debt looming over you for a long time (or establish some sort of financial security asap). Personally, I think NU is better for that, but that's just my opinion. But in any case, please please please don't base your decision based on this chart, which makes lots of (wrong) assumptions in coming to the conclusion*.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 6:03 pm**

elizcbeth wrote:Haha very good point. I honestly dont know anything about taxes so I left it out for ease. What would be a good percentage to use in order to calculate take home pay? 20%?

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 6:56 pm**

rayiner wrote:
elizcbeth wrote:Haha very good point. I honestly dont know anything about taxes so I left it out for ease. What would be a good percentage to use in order to calculate take home pay? 20%?

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 7:01 pm**

Golden Bear 11 wrote:
elizcbeth wrote:^Very good perspective. Thank you!

But 240K vs 90K at graduation? Makes me cringe just thinking about it.
Yeah, but it would be hard to pay off 90K with no job from Davis. Tough choice here- NU at sticker is scary, but they place over 50% into biglaw. Try asking Davis for more money

Uhh...Notre Dame doesn't place anywhere close to that % in biglaw

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 7:03 pm**

bingbang1025 wrote:
Golden Bear 11 wrote:
elizcbeth wrote:^Very good perspective. Thank you!

But 240K vs 90K at graduation? Makes me cringe just thinking about it.
Yeah, but it would be hard to pay off 90K with no job from Davis. Tough choice here- NU at sticker is scary, but they place over 50% into biglaw. Try asking Davis for more money
Uhh...Notre Dame doesn't place anywhere close to that % in biglaw

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

NU =/= ND

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 7:04 pm**

bingbang1025 wrote:
Golden Bear 11 wrote:
elizcbeth wrote:^Very good perspective. Thank you!

But 240K vs 90K at graduation? Makes me cringe just thinking about it.
Yeah, but it would be hard to pay off 90K with no job from Davis. Tough choice here- NU at sticker is scary, but they place over 50% into biglaw. Try asking Davis for more money
Uhh...Notre Dame doesn't place anywhere close to that % in biglaw

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

This discussion is about Northwestern not Notre Dame...

Anyway, we are in such similar predicaments. I was awarded the same scholarship amount by Davis but withdrew in favor of Boston U and am now wondering if Northwestern is worth sticker.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 10:48 pm**

jenesaislaw wrote:
elizcbeth wrote:I honestly dont know anything about taxes so I left it out for ease. What would be a good percentage to use in order to calculate take home pay? 20%?
Don't go to law school. Go do something else for a few years.

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 3:32 am**

rickgrimes69 wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:
elizcbeth wrote:I honestly dont know anything about taxes so I left it out for ease. What would be a good percentage to use in order to calculate take home pay? 20%?
Don't go to law school. Go do something else for a few years.

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