Top Law Schools

Earlier in my decision making process, I posted about other schools but my final two have come down to UCLA (75k scholarship) and Penn (45k scholarship). I'm from CA, went to UCLA for undergrad and want to practice here after law school. I work as a journalist, and want to maintain ties to the industry, so I'm thinking media/entertainment law. I've sent deposits to both schools, and was completely honest about it with both. They said their okay with it, but I think it's about time I pick on.

In addition to giving me 30k more in scholarship, UCLA's tuition will be about 8k less per year because I'm in state. That makes UCLA about 54k cheaper than Penn right now. At what point does UCLA's financial offer trump Penn (if ever)? Is a 54k difference too little to turn down Penn for? UCLA has already increased my scholarship twice, so I don't think they will again. Penn (for now) says an increase isn't possible.

I keep going back and forth between the schools. I think Penn is a fantastic school, but I'm not too crazy about Philly or the increased debt. UCLA is cheaper, allows me to build CA ties, but not as strong in terms of reputation...so as you can see, I'm basically torn.


Thanks in advance for the help!

Gemini198 wrote:At what point does UCLA's financial offer trump Penn (if ever)? Is a 54k difference too little to turn down Penn for?

It would definitely take more than a $54K difference for me to take UCLA over Penn -- a lot more.

JasonR wrote:

Gemini198 wrote:At what point does UCLA's financial offer trump Penn (if ever)? Is a 54k difference too little to turn down Penn for?

It would definitely take more than a $54K difference for me to take UCLA over Penn -- a lot more.

If you want to work in CA though? Also for entertainment law, being in LA has a huge advantage over Philly. Also Philly just sucks. I did 1L there before I transferred. Horrible city.

Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.


Also, please withdraw from Penn to open up spots if that's the choice you make

I'd take UCLA if I were you.

UCLA is a better option for you.

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

romothesavior wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

+1

romothesavior wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

+1. Personally I'd pick Penn (I'm on both schools WL right now). Ucla struggled to get near 40 percent nlj 250 in boom times, and it last checked in at 22 percent. And you will still be in a pretty good amount of debt at UCLA. In terms of job placement, Penn is simply in another league.

romothesavior wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

Yep.

22% in 2011 is low for UCLA, considering USC placed 33%.

Penn with 57% and probably good placement in CA is the best choice here.

bceagles182 wrote:

JasonR wrote:

Gemini198 wrote:At what point does UCLA's financial offer trump Penn (if ever)? Is a 54k difference too little to turn down Penn for?

It would definitely take more than a $54K difference for me to take UCLA over Penn -- a lot more.

If you want to work in CA though? Also for entertainment law, being in LA has a huge advantage over Philly. Also Philly just sucks. I did 1L there before I transferred. Horrible city.

1. Philly is great.
2. Villanova is not in Philly.
3. If you lived in Philly and commuted out of the city throughout your 1L year, well... Don't blame Philly for your bad life choices.

ETA: OP, Philly is seriously a great city, but it can be tricky to find the fun parts if you don't know where to look or have anyone showing you around. I wouldn't judge the city too harshly on the basis of a short visit.

romothesavior wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

TITCR. I feel like if this was Northwestern or Michigan instead of Penn everyone would be voting against UCLA. Penn doesn't only place in NYC and the east coast. They send about 10 percent of the class to CA every year.

I think you really need employment info on Penn's west coast placement. If the two are comparable in placing graduates where you want to be, and one is cheaper and doesn't involve a cross-country move, I'd take that. You've got some great options. Good luck!

romothesavior wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

I would agree that for the standard biglaw applicant, Penn wins easily. But OP has worked in journalism in LA, has connections in LA, and wants to enter a very LA-centric field after law school. For all of those reasons, plus the extra 50k, I would think UCLA might be worth it.

Golden Bear 11 wrote:22% in 2011 is low for UCLA, considering USC placed 33%.

Penn with 57% and probably good placement in CA is the best choice here.

I understand UCLA is usually better than 22%, but Penn is usually better than ~55% too. It is probably near 100% biglaw placement for those who want it in boom times (so excluding PI and MBA-oriented people).

Regardless of where OP goes, he's gonna need biglaw to manage the debt. If UCLA were a full ride and OP wanted LA really bad, I'd say go for it. But its not a full ride. OP needs the increased security that a Penn degree brings.

So yeah I agree, Penn is the way to go. The more I think about it, I don't even think its close. If a Penn student could chime in with info on their Cali firm placement that would probably help seal the deal.

When it's ajar.

Doorkeeper wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

I would agree that for the standard biglaw applicant, Penn wins easily. But OP has worked in journalism in LA, has connections in LA, and wants to enter a very LA-centric field after law school. For all of those reasons, plus the extra 50k, I would think UCLA might be worth it.

OP's preference for "median and entertainment law" is irrelevant. It's like picking a school based on your desire to do "international human rights." In a year and a half at OCI when OP is trying to get a Vault firm SA with everyone else so they can pay off their debt, choosing UCLA won't look so good. UCLA makes sense if OP is adamantly against any non-CA market, but UCLA is still so expensive that I don't see how you could manage that much debt with anything other than biglaw.

Media/entertainment law is not a reason to go to UCLA over Penn. Most people will not get jobs in that field anyways without previous experience in the industry AND previous legal experience. I wouldn't risk going to UCLA on the offchance you will get one of those jobs. Go to Penn.

Nelson wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

I would agree that for the standard biglaw applicant, Penn wins easily. But OP has worked in journalism in LA, has connections in LA, and wants to enter a very LA-centric field after law school. For all of those reasons, plus the extra 50k, I would think UCLA might be worth it.

OP's preference for "median and entertainment law" is irrelevant. It's like picking a school based on your desire to do "international human rights." In a year and a half at OCI when OP is trying to get a Vault firm SA with everyone else so they can pay off their debt, choosing UCLA won't look so good. UCLA makes sense if OP is adamantly against any non-CA market, but UCLA is still so expensive that I don't see how you could manage that much debt with anything other than biglaw.

Yes, I see your point. What if OP is currently an entertainment journalist in LA, and thus has intimate ties to the industry already? I agree that if we were talking about some kid from Arkansas who wants to move to LA to get into media law that it would be ridiculous and he/she should go to Penn, but if OP is truly already working in the industry then it's not as easy as that.

I guess it would be good if OP could elaborate on his/her industry connections. Basically, OP, if you went to UCLA you would be betting that your contacts can get you a job in 3 years.

romothesavior wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:Reading the thread title, I was basically gonna say "if COA is 30K lower and you want SoCal after grad, UCLA is credited. I see you fulfill this easily, so pick UCLA.

I dunno about this. 30k is pocket change when we're talking at least 2x the biglaw placement (latest NLJ data has UCLA at 22% vs. Penn's 57%). I admittedly know little about Penn's placement power on the West Coast, so I will defer to any Penn students who can speak on this. I guess it depends on 1) Penn's CA biglaw placement, and 2) how committed OP is to being in So Cal (is it worth missing biglaw and having tons of debt?), but normally when we're talking about an investment this big, 30k is easily worth it to double or triple your biglaw odds.

This is by no means a slam dunk for UCLA. Unless someone can show that Penn has atrocious Cali placement or something, I think Penn wins.

yeah, I guess so, but I would point out that the COA difference is more like 54K after in-state.


Also, Penn's west coast placement stats aren't going to help a ton because of self-selection. They're basically just meaningful wrt alumni network

Doorkeeper wrote:Yes, I see your point. What if OP is currently an entertainment journalist in LA, and thus has intimate ties to the industry already? I agree that if we were talking about some kid from Arkansas who wants to move to LA to get into media law that it would be ridiculous and he/she should go to Penn, but if OP is truly already working in the industry then it's not as easy as that.

I guess it would be good if OP could elaborate on his/her industry connections. Basically, OP, if you went to UCLA you would be betting that your contacts can get you a job in 3 years.

Call me a cynic, but I doubt that a 20 something "journalist" in CA has such a deep professional network that they can guarantee themselves a legal job at graduation. This sounds more like OP just has a resume line that they'd like to use as a practice area.

OP's math is off on cost too. CA resident tution for UCLA was 45k last year. Penn's tuition was 50k. This is a 45k difference at best and COL is going to be lower in Philly than LA.

There's an argument for UCLA, but it's not a cost/placement based one, it's a personal situation one. I can totally understand not wanting to go cross country and leave your friends/family behind, but that's not usually TLS conventional wisdom approved.

Doorkeeper wrote: Yes, I see your point. What if OP is currently an entertainment journalist in LA, and thus has intimate ties to the industry already? I agree that if we were talking about some kid from Arkansas who wants to move to LA to get into media law that it would be ridiculous and he/she should go to Penn, but if OP is truly already working in the industry then it's not as easy as that.

I guess it would be good if OP could elaborate on his/her industry connections. Basically, OP, if you went to UCLA you would be betting that your contacts can get you a job in 3 years.

The only media journalist with intimate ties to the industry is Nikki Finke and everyone hates/is scared of her. Otherwise media journalists are definitely just like anyone else, on the outside looking in. He'd have as much chance at working in entertainment law as that proverbial kid from Arkansas.

If he had representation experience at an agency or management firm that would be best, since then he would have interacted w/ entertainment lawyers as part of his clients' teams, but even production company/studio experience would be decent.

Close call because OP works in LA as a journalist & wants to maintain ties to the LA entertainment industry.

OP: Although Penn clearly places into biglaw better than UCLA, you will be taking yourself out of your current network for three years. Visit Penn & ask about summer associate placement in Los Angeles. It would be helpful to know specific LA placement stats from both schools.

Also, ask UCLA for additional scholarship money since some has recently become available & your Penn acceptance with money will get UCLA adcomms' attention.

barneytrouble wrote:When it's ajar.

+1