Top Law Schools

Total CoA includes tuition, fees, and housing after factoring in multiple scholarships. I want to do public interest and do not have an interest in BigLaw. Prefer to live on East Coast after grad but would not be terribly opposed to California. I am interested in clerkships and academia, though I realize the latter will be extremely difficult from these schools (esp at UCLA).

Is Michigan worth 100k more?

Not given your interests, no.

Um yes it is. UCLA doesn't go too far on the east coast. Michigan is much more portable and sends grads across the country. $150k for UM isn't shabby.

UCLA would probably lock you into working out west

Clerkships are hard from any school. You shouldn't pick based on clerkship chances unless one of the choices is HYS. Academia is nigh impossible from any school. You shouldn't pick based on academia chances unless one of the choices is HYS.

Since you want PI and don't want biglaw I would take UCLA. It's super cheap. The only advantage UMich gets your is a bit more prestige and better access to the east coast. Unless you have a huge preference for the east coast I'm not sure that those are worth 100k. Especially if you haven't factored in interest because UMich will be closer to 180k at graduation if you aren't counting interest.

bk187 wrote:Clerkships are hard from any school. You shouldn't pick based on clerkship chances unless one of the choices is HYS. Academia is nigh impossible from any school. You shouldn't pick based on academia chances unless one of the choices is HYS.

Since you want PI and don't want biglaw I would take UCLA. It's super cheap. The only advantage UMich gets your is a bit more prestige and better access to the east coast. Unless you have a huge preference for the east coast I'm not sure that those are worth 100k. Especially if you haven't factored in interest because UMich will be closer to 180k at graduation if you aren't counting interest.

The counter argument to this is, if you just want PI, LRAP is going to kick in and the debt difference is negligible, but if you change your career path or are swayed by the biglaw money later on, well then maybe Michigan is worth it.

dakure wrote: The counter argument to this is, if you just want PI, LRAP is going to kick in and the debt difference is negligible, but if you change your career path or are swayed by the biglaw money later on, well then maybe Michigan is worth it.

Relying on a LRAP after incuring damn near close to 200K in debt is a scary proposition to me.

dakure wrote:

bk187 wrote:Clerkships are hard from any school. You shouldn't pick based on clerkship chances unless one of the choices is HYS. Academia is nigh impossible from any school. You shouldn't pick based on academia chances unless one of the choices is HYS.

Since you want PI and don't want biglaw I would take UCLA. It's super cheap. The only advantage UMich gets your is a bit more prestige and better access to the east coast. Unless you have a huge preference for the east coast I'm not sure that those are worth 100k. Especially if you haven't factored in interest because UMich will be closer to 180k at graduation if you aren't counting interest.

The counter argument to this is, if you just want PI, LRAP is going to kick in and the debt difference is negligible, but if you can't get a PI job and you have $150K (really $180K) in debt you're going to be in a world of hurt.

FTFY

Based on the original post in this thread, I agree that UCLA at $50,000 total COA is the better choice given your career interests & willingness to live & work on either coast. However, after reading OP's brief profile & noting that OP's undergraduate major is in chemistry, I wonder whether OP's career goals might change thereby raising additional considerations.

Regardless, UCLA at a total 3 year COA at $50,000 is a great deal. Michigan probably offers more national exposure & may have better PI loan repayment plans.

If your doing PI, with LRAP/IBR and student loan forgiveness, don't worry about loans. Im not familiar with UM's, but UCLA if ur making under 60k, you don't pay a dime, then just a small percent up to 80k. The only time it'll bite you is if you decide to go for-profit before 10 years. If your working PI, your not making much more than that even after 10 years so its just not a concern.

I would make the choice based on where you want to work. UM is going to give you the best prospects I think... but I do understand being concerned about debt in general.

anon2015 wrote:If your doing PI, with LRAP/IBR and student loan forgiveness, don't worry about loans.

Yes, don't worry about loans because you are guaranteed to get a PSLF/LRAP qualifying job and there is absolutely no chance that you won't get one and be shit outta luck with a low paying job and massive debt.

bk187 wrote:

anon2015 wrote:If your doing PI, with LRAP/IBR and student loan forgiveness, don't worry about loans.

Yes, don't worry about loans because you are guaranteed to get a PSLF/LRAP qualifying job and there is absolutely no chance that you won't get one and be shit outta luck with a low paying job and massive debt.

No kidding. For some reason the letters "PI" tend to produce a lot of magical thinking. The line of reasoning that you don't have to worry about debt because of IBR/LRAP makes even less sense that arguing you don't have to worry about debt because big law firms pay $160K starting salaries.

bk187 wrote:

anon2015 wrote:If your doing PI, with LRAP/IBR and student loan forgiveness, don't worry about loans.

Yes, don't worry about loans because you are guaranteed to get a PSLF/LRAP qualifying job and there is absolutely no chance that you won't get one and be shit outta luck with a low paying job and massive debt.

lol this

Are these your only two options?

The Rover wrote:Are these your only two options?

i don't get the point of this question. OP's got a full ride at UCLA and a decent scholly at Mich. There really isn't an "in between" or an alternative that would be more attractive at this point.

bk187 wrote:Clerkships are hard from any school. You shouldn't pick based on clerkship chances unless one of the choices is HYS. Academia is nigh impossible from any school. You shouldn't pick based on academia chances unless one of the choices is HYS.

Eh, yes and no. Michigan has a 30% placement rate for academia, so it's not nigh impossible. Michigan also places 5 times the amount of academics as UCLA. OP just needs to know that is what he/she wants going in. I agree that clerkship is going to be difficult. This being said, Michigan is in a much different standing relative to UCLA when it comes to both prospects. It depends how risk averse OP is. Personally, I would do Michigan here.

Paul Campos wrote:

bk187 wrote:

anon2015 wrote:If your doing PI, with LRAP/IBR and student loan forgiveness, don't worry about loans.

Yes, don't worry about loans because you are guaranteed to get a PSLF/LRAP qualifying job and there is absolutely no chance that you won't get one and be shit outta luck with a low paying job and massive debt.

No kidding. For some reason the letters "PI" tend to produce a lot of magical thinking. The line of reasoning that you don't have to worry about debt because of IBR/LRAP makes even less sense that arguing you don't have to worry about debt because big law firms pay $160K starting salaries.

michigan's lrap includes private sector jobs...

Doorkeeper wrote:

bk187 wrote:Clerkships are hard from any school. You shouldn't pick based on clerkship chances unless one of the choices is HYS. Academia is nigh impossible from any school. You shouldn't pick based on academia chances unless one of the choices is HYS.

Eh, yes and no. Michigan has a 30% placement rate for academia, so it's not nigh impossible. Michigan also places 5 times the amount of academics as UCLA. OP just needs to know that is what he/she wants going in. I agree that clerkship is going to be difficult. This being said, Michigan is in a much different standing relative to UCLA when it comes to both prospects. It depends how risk averse OP is. Personally, I would do Michigan here.

LOL no they don't.

and Michigan does have the edge, but it's not significant. Roughly 10% (give or take a little) from the class from either school is going to get a federal clerkship. Where Mich will certainly be more competitive than UCLA is biglaw and prestigious PI positions.

Michigan definitely. Not sure how UCLA makes sense for someone with an east coast preference.

f0bolous wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:

bk187 wrote:Clerkships are hard from any school. You shouldn't pick based on clerkship chances unless one of the choices is HYS. Academia is nigh impossible from any school. You shouldn't pick based on academia chances unless one of the choices is HYS.

Eh, yes and no. Michigan has a 30% placement rate for academia, so it's not nigh impossible. Michigan also places 5 times the amount of academics as UCLA. OP just needs to know that is what he/she wants going in. I agree that clerkship is going to be difficult. This being said, Michigan is in a much different standing relative to UCLA when it comes to both prospects. It depends how risk averse OP is. Personally, I would do Michigan here.

LOL no they don't.

and Michigan does have the edge, but it's not significant. Roughly 10% (give or take a little) from the class from either school is going to get a federal clerkship. Where Mich will certainly be more competitive than UCLA is biglaw and prestigious PI positions.

30% placement rate for Michigan from 2006-2008: http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... iring.html
*This rate is likely to increase due to the great year Michigan had in 2009 (10 placements)

Clerkship: Michigan has a slight advantage (7% vs. 4% for Fed., not sure about the rest).

bk187 wrote:

anon2015 wrote:If your doing PI, with LRAP/IBR and student loan forgiveness, don't worry about loans.

Yes, don't worry about loans because you are guaranteed to get a PSLF/LRAP qualifying job and there is absolutely no chance that you won't get one and be shit outta luck with a low paying job and massive debt.

I mean obviously this, but my point was just another thing to take into consideration, and not an end all be all.

Doorkeeper wrote:

f0bolous wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:

bk187 wrote:Clerkships are hard from any school. You shouldn't pick based on clerkship chances unless one of the choices is HYS. Academia is nigh impossible from any school. You shouldn't pick based on academia chances unless one of the choices is HYS.

Eh, yes and no. Michigan has a 30% placement rate for academia, so it's not nigh impossible. Michigan also places 5 times the amount of academics as UCLA. OP just needs to know that is what he/she wants going in. I agree that clerkship is going to be difficult. This being said, Michigan is in a much different standing relative to UCLA when it comes to both prospects. It depends how risk averse OP is. Personally, I would do Michigan here.

LOL no they don't.

and Michigan does have the edge, but it's not significant. Roughly 10% (give or take a little) from the class from either school is going to get a federal clerkship. Where Mich will certainly be more competitive than UCLA is biglaw and prestigious PI positions.

30% placement rate for Michigan from 2006-2008: http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... iring.html
*This rate is likely to increase due to the great year Michigan had in 2009 (10 placements)

Clerkship: Michigan has a slight advantage (7% vs. 4% for Fed., not sure about the rest).

Illinois has a 38% placement rate, which is better than Harvard's and almost as good as Yale's.*

*This is a meaningless stat. UM's "30% placement rate" means that 15 people with UM law degrees of the 50 who applied (from all graduating classes combined) got academic jobs over a two year period.

Paul Campos wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:30% placement rate for Michigan from 2006-2008: http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... iring.html
*This rate is likely to increase due to the great year Michigan had in 2009 (10 placements)

Clerkship: Michigan has a slight advantage (7% vs. 4% for Fed., not sure about the rest).

Illinois has a 38% placement rate, which is better than Harvard's and almost as good as Yale's.*

*This is a meaningless stat. UM's "30% placement rate" means that 15 people with UM law degrees of the 50 who applied (from all graduating classes combined) got academic jobs over a two year period.

1. Obviously Illinois is a small sample size that should be viewed with skepticism.
2. No data I've seen since then has led me to think this number is off. If anything, Michigan's recent success in the academic job market would signal an increase.
3. This is not a meaningless statistic. This statistic means that of the 50 students who graduated from Michigan that wanted to pursue academia in the timespan listed, 30% received tenure-track positions at law schools.

Basically, if OP wants to keep academia on the table I would suggest he/she strongly consider Michigan. It is up to the OP whether this is worth 100k to him/her.

Doorkeeper wrote:

Paul Campos wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:30% placement rate for Michigan from 2006-2008: http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... iring.html
*This rate is likely to increase due to the great year Michigan had in 2009 (10 placements)

Clerkship: Michigan has a slight advantage (7% vs. 4% for Fed., not sure about the rest).

Illinois has a 38% placement rate, which is better than Harvard's and almost as good as Yale's.*

*This is a meaningless stat. UM's "30% placement rate" means that 15 people with UM law degrees of the 50 who applied (from all graduating classes combined) got academic jobs over a two year period.

1. Obviously Illinois is a small sample size that should be viewed with skepticism.
2. It's over a 3 year period, and no data I've seen since then has led me to think this number is off. If anything, Michigan's recent success in the academic job market would signal an increase.
3. This is not a meaningless statistic. This statistic means that of the 50 students who graduated from Michigan that wanted to pursue academia in the timespan listed, 30% received tenure-track positions at law schools.

Seriously?

Paul Campos wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:

Paul Campos wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:30% placement rate for Michigan from 2006-2008: http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... iring.html
*This rate is likely to increase due to the great year Michigan had in 2009 (10 placements)

Clerkship: Michigan has a slight advantage (7% vs. 4% for Fed., not sure about the rest).

Illinois has a 38% placement rate, which is better than Harvard's and almost as good as Yale's.*

*This is a meaningless stat. UM's "30% placement rate" means that 15 people with UM law degrees of the 50 who applied (from all graduating classes combined) got academic jobs over a two year period.

1. Obviously Illinois is a small sample size that should be viewed with skepticism.
2. No data I've seen since then has led me to think this number is off. If anything, Michigan's recent success in the academic job market would signal an increase.
3. This is not a meaningless statistic. This statistic means that of the 50 students who graduated from Michigan that wanted to pursue academia in the timespan listed, 30% received tenure-track positions at law schools.

Seriously?

I don't really see what the problem is here. Care to elaborate instead of just being snarky?

Seriously?[/quote]
I don't really see what the problem is here. Care to elaborate instead of just being snarky?[/quote]

The problem is that the way you frame this makes it sound as if in a typical year only about 17 UMLS grads (from all graduating classes) would like to get a tenure-track academic job, and that 30% succeed. That's what a 30% placement rate would normally mean -- three out of ten people who want that kind of job get it. In fact the number of applicants reflects the fact that only a tiny percentage of UMLS grads have a shot at a tenure track position. This factor shouldn't really be a consideration for somebody in the OP's situation.