CLS($50k), NYU($87.5k), UVa($150k) Forum

[kaiser]

definitely take a look at overall COA. I think the cheapest rent around NYU is around $500 more than the cheapest rent around CLS. So in that case, the difference is closer to 20k~ish than 37.5k

Who says you gotta live right by the school? I live 35 min commute away, and pay less than half of what the cheapest NYU dorms cost. My COL is definitely less than what NYU estimates, so for me, the difference is even greater.

[sfreuden]

definitely take a look at overall COA. I think the cheapest rent around NYU is around $500 more than the cheapest rent around CLS. So in that case, the difference is closer to 20k~ish than 37.5k

Who says you gotta live right by the school? I live 35 min commute away, and pay less than half of what the cheapest NYU dorms cost. My COL is definitely less than what NYU estimates, so for me, the difference is even greater.

Whether I go to CLS or NYU, I want to live on campus 1L. I just feel like it will be easier to meet people / get to class / study, etc. if I'm right on campus for the all-important 1L. I will definitely consider living off-campus in more affordanble housing for 2L and 3L, though.

Also, I think CLS tuition more. The CLS 2012-2013 budget they sent me is ~$80k, while the NYU 2012-2013 budget is ~$75k.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I would just like to point out what seems to be a trend here (though not exclusively):

0Ls' advice: "Money's not a big deal, prestige is forever, go to CLS."
Current law students' advice: "TAKE THE GODDAMN MONEY."

Once you guys start school you will realize how little all these hair-splitting decisions matter. You may think now there's something special about CLS but you are unlikely to happier or more successful coming from CLS than UVA, and especially not NYU. A hundred grand plus interest, though, is for real.

[sfreuden]

I would just like to point out what seems to be a trend here (though not exclusively):

0Ls' advice: "Money's not a big deal, prestige is forever, go to CLS."
Current law students' advice: "TAKE THE GODDAMN MONEY."

Once you guys start school you will realize how little all these hair-splitting decisions matter. You may think now there's something special about CLS but you are unlikely to happier or more successful coming from CLS than UVA, and especially not NYU. A hundred grand plus interest, though, is for real.

I've definitely noticed that pattern as well. And yes, you are right that a hundred grand plus interest is definitely "for real". I'm actually considering taking the $87.5k at NYU. I just don't think I would be happy in CVille, and I have to take that into account as well.

The decision pretty much comes down to CLS vs. NYU for me. I think they offer a fairly comparable chance at biglaw, NYU is better for PI, and CLS is better for clerkships/academia (supposedly). I'm visiting again this weekend, so hopefully I'll know by Monday where I'm going to put my seat deposit down...

[Dany]

Law school is law school. It's not going to be happy times because you go to an NYC school. You have your whole life to live in New York, and your quality of life with no loans will be incredible, as opposed to living on student loans in NYC then paying off a HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS in debt post-graduation. You're obviously not going to listen, but you're crazy for not taking the money at UVA.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I would just like to point out what seems to be a trend here (though not exclusively):

0Ls' advice: "Money's not a big deal, prestige is forever, go to CLS."
Current law students' advice: "TAKE THE GODDAMN MONEY."

Once you guys start school you will realize how little all these hair-splitting decisions matter. You may think now there's something special about CLS but you are unlikely to happier or more successful coming from CLS than UVA, and especially not NYU. A hundred grand plus interest, though, is for real.

I've definitely noticed that pattern as well. And yes, you are right that a hundred grand plus interest is definitely "for real". I'm actually considering taking the $87.5k at NYU. I just don't think I would be happy in CVille, and I have to take that into account as well.

The decision pretty much comes down to CLS vs. NYU for me. I think they offer a fairly comparable chance at biglaw, NYU is better for PI, and CLS is better for clerkships/academia (supposedly). I'm visiting again this weekend, so hopefully I'll know by Monday where I'm going to put my seat deposit down...

FWIW I turned down more scholarship money at Michigan to go to NYU because I also thought I would be happier in NYC than in a college town. But the difference was less than $30k. If it had been $60k+ I would definitely have gone to an MVPB school. But it's a personal decision.

[kaiser]

I would just like to point out what seems to be a trend here (though not exclusively):

0Ls' advice: "Money's not a big deal, prestige is forever, go to CLS."
Current law students' advice: "TAKE THE GODDAMN MONEY."

Once you guys start school you will realize how little all these hair-splitting decisions matter. You may think now there's something special about CLS but you are unlikely to happier or more successful coming from CLS than UVA, and especially not NYU. A hundred grand plus interest, though, is for real.

Thats why I've always said that we should have some kind of color coding that would identify what year people are. That way we can sift out the "0L effect" you mentioned above that tends to skew polls and discussions, and yet goes unnoticed half the time. If I asked actual practicing lawyers about this, they would likely say turning down $100K extra money from a T10 school is stupid unless we are talking Harvard or Yale.

[Tiago Splitter]

Thats why I've always said that we should have some kind of color coding that would identify what year people are. That way we can sift out the "0L effect" you mentioned above that tends to skew polls and discussions, and yet goes unnoticed half the time. If I asked actual practicing lawyers about this, they would likely say turning down $100K extra money from a T10 school is stupid unless we are talking Harvard or Yale.

Rayiner is one of the most respected 3L posters on here and he often recommends turning down the money.

The problem I have with a lot of law students saying "take the money" is that in many cases they are already BigLaw secure after turning down the money and taking the higher ranked school.

[kaiser]

Thats why I've always said that we should have some kind of color coding that would identify what year people are. That way we can sift out the "0L effect" you mentioned above that tends to skew polls and discussions, and yet goes unnoticed half the time. If I asked actual practicing lawyers about this, they would likely say turning down $100K extra money from a T10 school is stupid unless we are talking Harvard or Yale.

Rayiner is one of the most respected 3L posters on here and he often recommends turning down the money.

The problem I have with a lot of law students saying "take the money" is that in many cases they are already BigLaw secure after turning down the money and taking the higher ranked school.

I didn't say that we should filter out the opinions of 0L's because they are all contrary to those of law students in some black and white matter. As you mentioned, there are legitimate debates and disagreements among law students themselves. It would be interesting to frame and understand that debate and actually be able to quantify it via polls and surveys. But it becomes impossible when we have the 0L effect that dilutes it. Again, I'm not saying the opinions of 0L's are worthless. But since they so heavily skew toward one side without any experience on which to base it, it distorts whatever results or takeaway that we can glean from the poll/survey.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Thats why I've always said that we should have some kind of color coding that would identify what year people are. That way we can sift out the "0L effect" you mentioned above that tends to skew polls and discussions, and yet goes unnoticed half the time. If I asked actual practicing lawyers about this, they would likely say turning down $100K extra money from a T10 school is stupid unless we are talking Harvard or Yale.

Rayiner is one of the most respected 3L posters on here and he often recommends turning down the money.

The problem I have with a lot of law students saying "take the money" is that in many cases they are already BigLaw secure after turning down the money and taking the higher ranked school.

You also have a poster in this thread who didn't get a BigLaw job, and is saying take the money, which is another important scenario to consider.

Think about it:
If you go to UVA and get BigLaw, you'll be glad to have much less debt to pay off.
If you go to UVA and strike out at OCI, you'll be glad to have much less debt to pay off.
The vast majority of people who don't get law firm jobs out of UVA wouldn't have gotten them if they went to CLS. The vast majority of people who get law firm jobs out of CLS would have gotten them out of UVA.
In short, yes, there is some additional risk you're taking on by going to a slightly lower-ranked school, but it is FAR outweighed by the risk you aren't taking on by borrowing more money.

The OP's preferences for not living in Charlottesville, on the other hand, are legitimate and hard to put a price tag on. I think, though, that there is very little justification for taking out an extra $40k to go to CLS over NYU. I just don't see it.

[bobbyh1919]

Thats why I've always said that we should have some kind of color coding that would identify what year people are. That way we can sift out the "0L effect" you mentioned above that tends to skew polls and discussions, and yet goes unnoticed half the time. If I asked actual practicing lawyers about this, they would likely say turning down $100K extra money from a T10 school is stupid unless we are talking Harvard or Yale.

Rayiner is one of the most respected 3L posters on here and he often recommends turning down the money.

The problem I have with a lot of law students saying "take the money" is that in many cases they are already BigLaw secure after turning down the money and taking the higher ranked school.

You also have a poster in this thread who didn't get a BigLaw job, and is saying take the money, which is another important scenario to consider.

Think about it:
If you go to UVA and get BigLaw, you'll be glad to have much less debt to pay off.
If you go to UVA and strike out at OCI, you'll be glad to have much less debt to pay off.
The vast majority of people who don't get law firm jobs out of UVA wouldn't have gotten them if they went to CLS. The vast majority of people who get law firm jobs out of CLS would have gotten them out of UVA.
In short, yes, there is some additional risk you're taking on by going to a slightly lower-ranked school, but it is FAR outweighed by the risk you aren't taking on by borrowing more money.

The OP's preferences for not living in Charlottesville, on the other hand, are legitimate and hard to put a price tag on. I think, though, that there is very little justification for taking out an extra $40k to go to CLS over NYU. I just don't see it.

That's good logic. It really just depends how much you prefer the city over CVille. I'm personally the opposite, I would be much happier at UVA, to the point where I didn't even throw apps at CLS/NYU. To me it's not a matter of "not having fun" or anything like that, because I don't know how much of that can be done anyway. It's about putting yourself in the best possible position to succeed for 3 grueling years (especially the first year) and you just have to weigh that and the increased job prospects against the $.

[Stanford4Me]

Disclaimer: NYU 2L

I chose NYU because I don't think CLS is worth 37.5k more than NYU. Go to CLS if you really enjoyed your visit there. Prospects from both schools re: NYC Biglaw are similar. Also, a lot of NYU students don't live in Greenwich village. Don't know why you would unless you're a 1L who isn't originally from New York or you don't mind paying more money to live close to NYU.

[timbs4339]

I would just like to point out what seems to be a trend here (though not exclusively):

0Ls' advice: "Money's not a big deal, prestige is forever, go to CLS."
Current law students' advice: "TAKE THE GODDAMN MONEY."

Once you guys start school you will realize how little all these hair-splitting decisions matter. You may think now there's something special about CLS but you are unlikely to happier or more successful coming from CLS than UVA, and especially not NYU. A hundred grand plus interest, though, is for real.

I've definitely noticed that pattern as well. And yes, you are right that a hundred grand plus interest is definitely "for real". I'm actually considering taking the $87.5k at NYU. I just don't think I would be happy in CVille, and I have to take that into account as well.

The decision pretty much comes down to CLS vs. NYU for me. I think they offer a fairly comparable chance at biglaw, NYU is better for PI, and CLS is better for clerkships/academia (supposedly). I'm visiting again this weekend, so hopefully I'll know by Monday where I'm going to put my seat deposit down...

I would seriously reconsider turning down UVa. You can spend your summers working in NYC if you like the city. And you will like it a lot more with an extra 75K+ after interest in your pocket. UVa is a very respected school and won't shut any doors down the line. As a current CLS student I'm not sure if the prestige bump is worth anything outside of impressing 0Ls and current law students.

[EdgarWinter]

.

[Dany]

In reference to the 0L vs law student discussion: remember that current law students are going to be heavily influenced by the choices they made and how those worked out for them. A student who turned down a massive T-10 scholly to go to T6 or HYS is pretty likely to post on here about what a great idea that was, and someone who did the opposite is likely to post up the opposite. The brain is remarkably good at rationalizing past decisions and it likes to share those rationalizations with the world. End point is that even current law student opinions have to be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't think this is correct at all.

[kaveman]

Disclaimer: NYU 2L

I chose NYU because I don't think CLS is worth 37.5k more than NYU. Go to CLS if you really enjoyed your visit there. Prospects from both schools re: NYC Biglaw are similar. Also, a lot of NYU students don't live in Greenwich village. Don't know why you would unless you're a 1L who isn't originally from New York or you don't mind paying more money to live close to NYU.

Where do most NYU students live after dorming for a year? How long do most people commute, and what's typical rent? Thanks in advance.

[Tiago Splitter]

In reference to the 0L vs law student discussion: remember that current law students are going to be heavily influenced by the choices they made and how those worked out for them. A student who turned down a massive T-10 scholly to go to T6 or HYS is pretty likely to post on here about what a great idea that was, and someone who did the opposite is likely to post up the opposite. The brain is remarkably good at rationalizing past decisions and it likes to share those rationalizations with the world. End point is that even current law student opinions have to be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't think this is correct at all.

I do. Timbs excepted.

[kaiser]

Disclaimer: NYU 2L

I chose NYU because I don't think CLS is worth 37.5k more than NYU. Go to CLS if you really enjoyed your visit there. Prospects from both schools re: NYC Biglaw are similar. Also, a lot of NYU students don't live in Greenwich village. Don't know why you would unless you're a 1L who isn't originally from New York or you don't mind paying more money to live close to NYU.

Where do most NYU students live after dorming for a year? How long do most people commute, and what's typical rent? Thanks in advance.

Lots of kids live in Brooklyn. I chose Jersey City since its the same length commute, but much cheaper rent. I am in class within 35 minutes of leaving my apartment, and I pay only $800 a month. I live way below the estimated living expenses that NYU has on their site. Plus I can get to downtown NY in all of 10-15 min. Couldn't beat it.

[Dany]

Obviously the part about taking opinions with a grain of salt is correct (duh) but I think most of the law students who take the time to post on-topic aren't just advocating what they chose to rationalize it.

[dixiecupdrinking]

In reference to the 0L vs law student discussion: remember that current law students are going to be heavily influenced by the choices they made and how those worked out for them. A student who turned down a massive T-10 scholly to go to T6 or HYS is pretty likely to post on here about what a great idea that was, and someone who did the opposite is likely to post up the opposite. The brain is remarkably good at rationalizing past decisions and it likes to share those rationalizations with the world. End point is that even current law student opinions have to be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree -- which makes it all the more noteworthy that you've got CCN students in here saying take the money. I'm not even sure it was a smart move in retrospect to pass up $30k plus COL at Michigan for NYU. The debt weighs on you. Even when you win the biglaw lottery the money doesn't stop mattering.

[kaiser]

In reference to the 0L vs law student discussion: remember that current law students are going to be heavily influenced by the choices they made and how those worked out for them. A student who turned down a massive T-10 scholly to go to T6 or HYS is pretty likely to post on here about what a great idea that was, and someone who did the opposite is likely to post up the opposite. The brain is remarkably good at rationalizing past decisions and it likes to share those rationalizations with the world. End point is that even current law student opinions have to be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree -- which makes it all the more noteworthy that you've got CCN students in here saying take the money. I'm not even sure it was a smart move in retrospect to pass up $30k plus COL at Michigan for NYU. The debt weighs on you. Even when you win the biglaw lottery the money doesn't stop mattering.

Thats what I was going to point out. If people do try and retroactively justify their choices, why do you have so many students who attend CCN urging OP to take the $$? Sure, the "retroactive justification" theory holds up if all these CCN students failed at getting biglaw, are now saddled with horrible debt, and WISH they had taken the $$ at the lower ranked school. But something tells me, if you did a survey of the CCN students on here advocating that he take the money, you wouldn't find too many who think that CCN was a poor choice. I for one an immensely happy at NYU and am immensely happy with the SA I have lined up, and yet, if I could go back in time and have the choice OP now has, I'd still take UVA.

[bk1]

UVA gets my vote.

A lot of people ITT seem to be focused on the chances of getting biglaw. Yes that is important and CLS/NYU trump UVA in that respect. But there's the second factor of staying in biglaw long enough to pay down your debt. About 50% of biglaw associates are gone by year 3 and about 80% are gone by year 5. Taking extra debt from CLS/NYU creates substantial risk that you exit biglaw before being able to pay down your debt. It doesn't make sense to take on a risk like that when you have a school that places almost as well yet costs substantially less.

[bmore]

Even if you have no debt, why pay that much more for something that will likely get you to the same place.

[Tiago Splitter]

If people do try and retroactively justify their choices, why do you have so many students who attend CCN urging OP to take the $$?

Because CCN students get BigLaw, assume they could have gotten BigLaw from anywhere now that they have it, and wish they had taken a cheaper route.

[Stanford4Me]

Disclaimer: NYU 2L

I chose NYU because I don't think CLS is worth 37.5k more than NYU. Go to CLS if you really enjoyed your visit there. Prospects from both schools re: NYC Biglaw are similar. Also, a lot of NYU students don't live in Greenwich village. Don't know why you would unless you're a 1L who isn't originally from New York or you don't mind paying more money to live close to NYU.

Where do most NYU students live after dorming for a year? How long do most people commute, and what's typical rent? Thanks in advance.

I live in the East Village and a lot of other people I know live in this area as well. A lot of students also choose to move out to Brooklyn which, depending on what part of Brooklyn you're in, can be a 20 - 30 minute commute. Rent for me in a 3BR is 1200, and rent in Brooklyn is drastically cheaper. There are also a lot of students who decide to stay in one of the on-campus apartments because they like the convenience.