Northwestern vs. CLS/NYU Forum

[Tiago Splitter]

So far I've been offered 60K from Northwestern and nothing from CLS or NYU. Career goal is biglaw in Southern California, with biglaw anywhere I can get it a close second.

I can't decide if 60K is enough to turn down CLS/NYU. Seems like a really close call, made tougher by the lower COL in Chicago.

[rad lulz]

Total CoA at each?

[09042014]

Total CoA at each?

NU is about the same as CLS/NYU so I'd assume NU is only 60K less than the others.

I'd probably take the money at Nw. It's probably only going to place slightly less than CLS/NYU in SoCal.

[Tiago Splitter]

Total CoA at each?

Using the 2012-2013 numbers and multiplying by 3, it'd be about 231K for Columbia, 222 for NYU, and 171 for Northwestern. I have about 60K to contribute, half of which will be coming from a 529 that can only be used for education.

[KevinP]

Don't have anything to say other than congratulations on the amazing acceptances!

ETA: Unless you have a strong reason for preferring NYU, I think NYU is pretty much off the table.

[rad lulz]

Total CoA at each?

Using the 2012-2013 numbers and multiplying by 3, it'd be about 231K for Columbia, 222 for NYU, and 171 for Northwestern. I have about 60K to contribute, half of which will be coming from a 529 that can only be used for education.

NU in that case.

[crumpetsandtea]

Total CoA at each?

Using the 2012-2013 numbers and multiplying by 3, it'd be about 231K for Columbia, 222 for NYU, and 171 for Northwestern. I have about 60K to contribute, half of which will be coming from a 529 that can only be used for education.

NU in that case.

[Samara]

Interesting. The poll is going against the posters ITT. Count me as another vote for NU, especially since you want to go back to California. It seems that NU has a lot of people going back to the West Coast, no? In 2010, NU sent 15% to the "West" while CLS sent 9% to "Pacific." It's kind of comparing apples to oranges, but maybe it's a decent proxy?

I also have selfish reasons for you to pick NU.

[Chucky21]

It seems like NU is your best choice here. You have been given a scholarship there and it will give you access to the west coast, most likely more so than CLS or NYU.

[bk1]

I'd pick NU based on the money you have saved assuming you burn through it. You'll be around 115k-ish debt coming from NU at graduation (not counting CoA increases). For CLS/NYU that'd be more like 190k debt at graduation (again no CoA increases). You can pay off 115k debt in 10 years even if you end up in shitlaw (worst case scenario). The same cannot be said for 190k. If it wasn't for the 60k you have saved I'd probably lean CLS/NYU since you'd still be 200k in debt at NU. For me an important metric is being able to be debt-free 10 years from graduation. I'm not necessarily sure that's the right metric and I know at least one other person (rayiner) disagrees with me as to whether savings should factor into school choice.

[Tiago Splitter]

I'd pick NU based on the money you have saved assuming you burn through it. You'll be around 115k-ish ponies coming from NU at graduation (not counting CoA increases). For CLS/NYU that'd be more like 190k ponies at graduation (again no CoA increases). You can pay off 115k ponies in 10 years even if you end up in shitlaw (worst case scenario). The same cannot be said for 190k. If it wasn't for the 60k you have saved I'd probably lean CLS/NYU since you'd still be 200k in ponies at NU. For me an important metric is being able to be ponies-free 10 years from graduation. I'm not necessarily sure that's the right metric and I know at least one other person (rayiner) disagrees with me as to whether savings should factor into school choice.

Yeah I saw Rayiner mention that in another thread. Based on his analysis in his employment data threads I think he'd choose CLS, but one of his standard multi-paragraph responses would be welcomed.

I'd love to see Columbia send me a little bit of aid, but I'm not counting on it.

Anybody think I can negotiate more out of NU?

[Nelson]

Anybody think I can negotiate more out of NU?

You should give it a try at least.

I think I would choose Columbia personally, because you have savings to cover almost the entire first year of tuition/COL.

[Jaeger]

First, congrats.

Try to negotiate what you can from all parties. Doesn't hurt to try. And I would definitely choose NU. Biglawl % isn't too much different, nor is placement on the coast and even if the difference is 60k different, think of the sick car you can buy with 60k. I know it doesn't really work this way, but it should.

But if you ever want academia in the future, maybe that'd change things. Not much, since it'll be hard even with CLS, but still change.

[Doorkeeper]

Total CoA at each?

Using the 2012-2013 numbers and multiplying by 3, it'd be about 231K for Columbia, 222 for NYU, and 171 for Northwestern. I have about 60K to contribute, half of which will be coming from a 529 that can only be used for education.

If this is the case, I would go for CLS/NYU. I don't think around 160k is too bad considering the biglaw placement at Columbia/NYU. Also, if you specifically want biglaw then I think it's CLS > NYU. Anyone know the NLJ stats for this?

[rayiner]

I'd pick NU based on the money you have saved assuming you burn through it. You'll be around 115k-ish ponies coming from NU at graduation (not counting CoA increases). For CLS/NYU that'd be more like 190k ponies at graduation (again no CoA increases). You can pay off 115k ponies in 10 years even if you end up in shitlaw (worst case scenario). The same cannot be said for 190k. If it wasn't for the 60k you have saved I'd probably lean CLS/NYU since you'd still be 200k in ponies at NU. For me an important metric is being able to be ponies-free 10 years from graduation. I'm not necessarily sure that's the right metric and I know at least one other person (rayiner) disagrees with me as to whether savings should factor into school choice.

Yeah I saw Rayiner mention that in another thread. Based on his analysis in his employment data threads I think he'd choose CLS, but one of his standard multi-paragraph responses would be welcomed.

I'd love to see Columbia send me a little bit of aid, but I'm not counting on it.

Anybody think I can negotiate more out of NU?

Here's the thing about savings. Your post law-school debt load used to be relevant to the question of how comfortably you'll be able to make the payments on your debt, but with IBR/ICR that's no longer relevant. You'll always be able to make your payments. What's relevant is the total cost difference. Either CLS is worth $60k more to you than NU or it isn't.

That said, I think you have a measurably bigger safety net at CLS, and that would be worth $60k to me. On the other hand I think you may actually have a marginally easier time getting a job in california from NU, if only because we have a big west coast contingent here (usually a quarter of the class) and send a lot of people there every year.

[kaiser]

Lol so who is the one who made the alternate spelling of "jerb" the april fool's word?

[TheRedMamba]

On the other hand I think you may actually have a marginally easier time getting a job in California from NU, if only because we have a big west coast contingent here (usually a quarter of the class) and send a lot of people there every year.

Going off of what you said, I think that might merely show that the reason NU places more on the west coast is because it has a high number of graduates that seek west coast employment and not that it actually has more effective west coast placement that CLS. I understand that more grads in the area ----> better placement but I think that a CLS/NYU grad would place as well as a NU grad on the west coast if thats what he or she so desired. The relative rarity of CLS/NYU grads as opposed to NU grads potentially makes landing a job easier as well.

[TaipeiMort]

So far I've been offered 60K from Northwestern and nothing from CLS or NYU. Career goal is biglawl in Southern California, with biglawl anywhere I can get it a close second.

I can't decide if 60K is enough to turn down CLS/NYU. Seems like a really close call, made tougher by the lower COL in Chicago.

NYU is doing nothing for you here.

NU places everywhere, but there is a lot of correlation going on with the self-selecting real resume people at NU, so I don't know if it helps. If you have the resume just go to CLS and profit

CLS does place everywhere, and is the best option of the three to get a job I think (I haven't seen as many CLS people as Chicago or Havard people in the Socal business firms I researched for OCI, but I think this is more due to CLS people self-selecting into NYC and DC than Chicago or Harvard a huge edge. It may even cut the other way-- so many CLS people want East Coast that you have less competition going west. For me, the extra 60k would be less important than security.

[Dignan]

Berkeley isn't an option?

I can't speak about Southern California, but Northern California firms seem to look slightly more favorably on CLS and NYU. Students from NU, Duke, and GULC aren't viewed in quite the same light.

If you wanted to work in Chicago, then NU would be the easy choice. But considering your goals—(1) so cal big law, (2) big law anywhere—I'd take the $60K hit and go with CLS.

[TaipeiMort]

Berkeley isn't an option?

I can't speak about Southern California, but Northern California firms seem to look slightly more favorably on CLS and NYU. Students from NU, Duke, and GULC aren't viewed in quite the same light.

If you wanted to work in Chicago, then NU would be the easy choice. But considering your goals—(1) so cal big law, (2) big law anywhere—I'd take the $60K hit and go with CLS.

Berkeley is better for SoCal than all other T14s besides HYSCC. It may be better than Columbia too, or Columbia grads just don't go to CA as much.

[PDaddy]

NU is every bit as good as or better than CLS or NYU for west coast placement. If given the choice between the three, you should not be afraid that you are somehow losing opportunities by going to a slighly lower ranked school. NU is still a top-10 school (one that can be argued for top-5 or so). I would probably go to CLS and not NYU for Cali placement, but NU is just as good for that purpose. ..and $60K is not peanuts!

[shoeshine]

NU is still a top-10 school (one that can be argued for top-5 or so).

LOL No.

It is a T14 but it is not top ten and it has never been close to top five.

[sunynp]

I'd pick NU based on the money you have saved assuming you burn through it. You'll be around 115k-ish ponies coming from NU at graduation (not counting CoA increases). For CLS/NYU that'd be more like 190k ponies at graduation (again no CoA increases). You can pay off 115k ponies in 10 years even if you end up in shitlaw (worst case scenario). The same cannot be said for 190k. If it wasn't for the 60k you have saved I'd probably lean CLS/NYU since you'd still be 200k in ponies at NU. For me an important metric is being able to be ponies-free 10 years from graduation. I'm not necessarily sure that's the right metric and I know at least one other person (rayiner) disagrees with me as to whether savings should factor into school choice.

Yeah I saw Rayiner mention that in another thread. Based on his analysis in his employment data threads I think he'd choose CLS, but one of his standard multi-paragraph responses would be welcomed.

I'd love to see Columbia send me a little bit of aid, but I'm not counting on it.

Anybody think I can negotiate more out of NU?

Here's the thing about savings. Your post law-school debt load used to be relevant to the question of how comfortably you'll be able to make the payments on your debt, but with IBR/ICR that's no longer relevant. You'll always be able to make your payments. What's relevant is the total cost difference. Either CLS is worth $60k more to you than NU or it isn't.

That said, I think you have a measurably bigger safety net at CLS, and that would be worth $60k to me. On the other hand I think you may actually have a marginally easier time getting a job in California from NU, if only because we have a big west coast contingent here (usually a quarter of the class) and send a lot of people there every year.

How do you pay off over $100,000 in ten years on a "shitlaw" salary?

As for IBR is just making the payments enough? Your debt will keep growing and your credit will be awful. I don't think you can ever pay off the amount of debt OP is talking about with IBR. OP will have debt for 25 years if he has to go with IBR. I think that IBR should be a last resort plan. Please explain this to me if I misunderstand. Thanks.

[Samara]

@rayiner - I agree that IBR lessens the impact of pre-law school savings, but I think it's still relevant. For one, 25 years of repayment with a tax bomb at the end is at best marginally better than total debt pwnage. But putting the worst-case scenario aside, I would argue it is still relevant if you make it to biglaw. $100k can be comfortably paid off in 2-3 years in biglaw. My understanding is that 2-3 years is all you can count on before getting pushed out or leaving voluntarily to preserve your sanity. If we're going to talk about risk aversion, any debt above what can be paid off comfortably within the minimum income "guaranteed" by getting biglaw is debt that starts to create a lot of risk. When your debt gets up to $160k, you need that all-important fourth year, if not fifth year, to get your debt paid off before leaving biglaw. (Let's not even get into $200k-$250k. Why again am I going to law school? Ugh.) $100k in debt also makes secondary markets feasible, whereas the higher debt load would force you into the major markets that pay lockstep. Sure, at CLS he might have a little larger safety net (especially considering he wants CA) for getting biglaw in the first place, but with a lower debt load, he would have significantly less risk once in biglaw and would have a few more "feasible" employment options in the secondary markets.

@TheRedMamba - I'm skeptical of the degree rarity claim here. It's not like CA is crawling with NU grads, so while NU's CA placement may be significantly higher, I doubt that it's so much higher as to create a degree rarity advantage for CLS. NU is not Harvard.

[rayiner]

I'd pick NU based on the money you have saved assuming you burn through it. You'll be around 115k-ish ponies coming from NU at graduation (not counting CoA increases). For CLS/NYU that'd be more like 190k ponies at graduation (again no CoA increases). You can pay off 115k ponies in 10 years even if you end up in shitlaw (worst case scenario). The same cannot be said for 190k. If it wasn't for the 60k you have saved I'd probably lean CLS/NYU since you'd still be 200k in ponies at NU. For me an important metric is being able to be ponies-free 10 years from graduation. I'm not necessarily sure that's the right metric and I know at least one other person (rayiner) disagrees with me as to whether savings should factor into school choice.

Yeah I saw Rayiner mention that in another thread. Based on his analysis in his employment data threads I think he'd choose CLS, but one of his standard multi-paragraph responses would be welcomed.

I'd love to see Columbia send me a little bit of aid, but I'm not counting on it.

Anybody think I can negotiate more out of NU?

Here's the thing about savings. Your post law-school debt load used to be relevant to the question of how comfortably you'll be able to make the payments on your debt, but with IBR/ICR that's no longer relevant. You'll always be able to make your payments. What's relevant is the total cost difference. Either CLS is worth $60k more to you than NU or it isn't.

That said, I think you have a measurably bigger safety net at CLS, and that would be worth $60k to me. On the other hand I think you may actually have a marginally easier time getting a job in California from NU, if only because we have a big west coast contingent here (usually a quarter of the class) and send a lot of people there every year.

How do you pay off over $100,000 in ten years on a "shitlaw" salary?

As for IBR is just making the payments enough? Your debt will keep growing and your credit will be awful. I don't think you can ever pay off the amount of debt OP is talking about with IBR. OP will have debt for 25 years if he has to go with IBR. I think that IBR should be a last resort plan. Please explain this to me if I misunderstand. Thanks.

The punch line is that unpaid interest under IBR doesn't compound. So the resulting tax bomb isn't that bad.