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I'm trying to narrow down my options... please share your thoughts. I know many people are in this situation so maybe this will be helpful to more than just myself

Where do you wanna work? Where you from? How debt averse are you? What kind of law do you want?

chimp wrote:Where do you wanna work? Where you from? How debt averse are you? What kind of law do you want?

Anywhere, I'm from Santa Monica so just outside of LA, I am somewhat debt averse, and I want a good paying job in the private sector. Thanks in advance

ocuviper wrote:

chimp wrote:Where do you wanna work? Where you from? How debt averse are you? What kind of law do you want?

Anywhere, I'm from Santa Monica so just outside of LA, I am somewhat debt averse, and I want a good paying job in the private sector. Thanks in advance

I voted USC because that's a shitload of money and you're form L.A. You have no business paying sticker at Cornell unless you have an irrational preference for NYC big law. USC all the way.

Ya go with USC. That's a shitload of debt at Cornell.

USC unless you are 100% biglaw or bust.

ocuviper wrote:I'm trying to narrow down my options... please share your thoughts. I know many people are in this situation so maybe this will be helpful to more than just myself

There is only one rational way to decide this...

Would you rather watch college hockey or college football?

USC, unquestionably, unless you can get Cornell to come up with 50K

Negotiate with Cornell.

So overall would you think that the odds of having a comfortable living, when considering debt as a factor of course, are higher if I go to USC?

Cornell's prestige is tempting, but I can be a realistic person...at times

USC

Well Cornell has better employment prospects, but if all you care about is general private practice employment and if you'd be happy staying in California, USC with that kinda money would def make sense. I think if I were you I'd try and leverage the USC money with Cornell. If they give you some money, I'd probably pick that just to broaden my options.

woeisme wrote:Well Cornell has better employment prospects, but if all you care about is general private practice employment and if you'd be happy staying in California, USC with that kinda money would def make sense. I think if I were you I'd try and leverage the USC money with Cornell. If they give you some money, I'd probably pick that just to broaden my options.

What I really care about is having a decent, so 90-160K, living. I understand that Cornell has higher employment prospects, but 200+ in debt is risky and I don't know if I can put myself under that kind of pressure.

Any thoughts on the LA market in general? Do you think it will struggle as the CA state continues to crumble or is that more of a public sector thing?

ocuviper wrote:

woeisme wrote:Well Cornell has better employment prospects, but if all you care about is general private practice employment and if you'd be happy staying in California, USC with that kinda money would def make sense. I think if I were you I'd try and leverage the USC money with Cornell. If they give you some money, I'd probably pick that just to broaden my options.

Any thoughts on the LA market in general? Do you think it will struggle as the CA state continues to crumble or is that more of a public sector thing?

I don't have thoughts on this really.

Cornell sticker is insane. You're going to borrow a quarter of a million dollars?

USC. If you're already on the left coast you don't want to move to New England

Can someone please provide an argument for Cornell? I'm having a tough time with this decision and would appreciate any help.

Cornell's BigLaw placement numbers seem healthier, but I'm not too good at analyzing cost and benefit

ocuviper wrote:Can someone please provide an argument for Cornell? I'm having a tough time with this decision and would appreciate any help.

Cornell's BigLaw placement numbers seem healthier, but I'm not too good at analyzing cost and benefit

I just went to the Cornell ASD and they were throwing around a statistics that at least 80% of the current class has a job lined up at a firm with at least 100 lawyers. Obviously, not all of these are NLJ 250 firms or whatnot, but that's still an impressive statistic for me. I would love to see the actual numbers on that, but if it's true it could be significant if you are looking for a firm job post-law school. How much of this is puffery by the Career Services is tough to tell.

Even still, take this as opposed to USC's employment numbers (http://lawweb.usc.edu/careers/statistics/) where only 72% of the Class of 2010 land in jobs that required a JD. Granted, this is in 2010 where the brunt of the recession was felt. However, there definitely seems to be a marked difference in placement statistics.

ocuviper wrote:Can someone please provide an argument for Cornell? I'm having a tough time with this decision and would appreciate any help.

Cornell's BigLaw placement numbers seem healthier, but I'm not too good at analyzing cost and benefit

The argument from Cornell is essentially broader and increased employment opportunities. Because your ties are already in California, if you go to USC you'll likely be limited to employment in California and, though your odds of landing private sector are pretty good, "biglaw" is uncertain.

If you go to Cornell, you'll be able to get back to California (where your ties are), but you'll also have a shot at NYC and any other region to which you have ties. Though biglaw is still not guaranteed, it's far more likely. Basically, Cornell over USC gives you the benefit of attending a "national" school over a "regional" school. With the increased geographic reach, you also increase your odds at landing a high-paying private sector gig.

I again suggest that you try and see if Cornell will give you some money to narrow the gap. If Cornell gives you some money, then this dilemma resolves itself, doesn't it?

ocuviper wrote:Cornell's BigLaw placement numbers seem healthier, but I'm not too good at analyzing cost and benefit

Then DO NOT invest a quarter of a million dollars in Cornell. That's how much it will cost after tuition, educational expenses, CoL for three years, and compounded interest.

90K at USC is a great offer, and your ties are in California. You'll have way less debt, good prospects, and your prospects will be enhanced by your ties to the area. Go to USC.

seancris wrote:

ocuviper wrote:Cornell's BigLaw placement numbers seem healthier, but I'm not too good at analyzing cost and benefit

Then DO NOT invest a quarter of a million dollars in Cornell. That's how much it will cost after tuition, educational expenses, CoL for three years, and compounded interest.

90K at USC is a great offer, and your ties are in California. You'll have way less debt, good prospects, and your prospects will be enhanced by your ties to the area. Go to USC.

With a CoA at $72,000+/year, USC with 90k would still leave OP in considerable debt. $120k+ in debt would still need BigLaw to pay off. At that level of debt, wouldn't you want to maximize your potential for getting a BigLaw job? OP's ties would definitely help him to get back to California from Cornell as well.
But, like Woeisme suggested, negotiating with Cornell for money definitely seems like the best course of action right now.

bigeast03 wrote:$120k+ in debt would still need BigLaw to pay off. At that level of debt, wouldn't you want to maximize your potential for getting a BigLaw job? OP's ties would definitely help him to get back to California from Cornell as well.
But, like Woeisme suggested, negotiating with Cornell for money definitely seems like the best course of action right now.

Those CoL numbers are probably inflated significantly. OP could probably borrow 100k and make it work. 100-120k in any case wouldn't necessarily need biglaw. Extended term loans could make the payments manageable, and if OP wanted to do PI at some point, he could take advantage of LRAPs.

I don't think it's good advice to borrow an additional 150k just because you're going to borrow six figures anyway. You can make 100k work without biglaw, you can't make 250k work.

seancris wrote:

bigeast03 wrote:$120k+ in debt would still need BigLaw to pay off. At that level of debt, wouldn't you want to maximize your potential for getting a BigLaw job? OP's ties would definitely help him to get back to California from Cornell as well.
But, like Woeisme suggested, negotiating with Cornell for money definitely seems like the best course of action right now.

Those CoL numbers are probably inflated significantly. OP could probably borrow 100k and make it work. 100-120k in any case wouldn't necessarily need biglaw. Extended term loans could make the payments manageable, and if OP wanted to do PI at some point, he could take advantage of LRAPs.

I don't think it's good advice to borrow an additional 150k just because you're going to borrow six figures anyway. You can make 100k work without biglaw, you can't make 250k work.

I mean, I have no dog in this fight, but I do think you should present both numbers fairly. If you're going to round-up for Cornell and by tack on interest for the CoA, but you'll say OP can borrow less than the CoA for USC and not worry about adding on interest for that, then the numbers will certainly make it look more appealing for USC. Assuming CoA for both is fairly reliable/accurate, it would be about 126k for USC, and 224k for Cornell (before interest). Monthly payments for USC would be $1450, and for Cornell they would be $2577 (assuming 10 year repayment).
Both schools provide adequate LRAP support should OP want to do PI. Cornell is definitely more expensive, but there's no need to stretch numbers to make your argument. Also, OP has not yet negotiated with Cornell to see whether he will manage a scholarship there or not.

bigeast03 wrote:

seancris wrote:Those CoL numbers are probably inflated significantly. OP could probably borrow 100k and make it work. 100-120k in any case wouldn't necessarily need biglaw. Extended term loans could make the payments manageable, and if OP wanted to do PI at some point, he could take advantage of LRAPs.

I don't think it's good advice to borrow an additional 150k just because you're going to borrow six figures anyway. You can make 100k work without biglaw, you can't make 250k work.

I mean, I have no dog in this fight, but I do think you should present both numbers fairly. If you're going to round-up for Cornell and by tack on interest for the CoA, but you'll say OP can borrow less than the CoA for USC and not worry about adding on interest for that, then the numbers will certainly make it look more appealing for USC. Assuming CoA for both is fairly reliable/accurate, it would be about 126k for USC, and 224k for Cornell (before interest). Monthly payments for USC would be $1450, and for Cornell they would be $2577 (assuming 10 year repayment). Both schools provide adequate LRAP support should OP want to do PI. Cornell is definitely more expensive, but there's no need to stretch numbers to make your argument. Also, OP has not yet negotiated with Cornell to see whether he will manage a scholarship there or not.

Wasn't trying to stretch numbers, just pointing out that OP probably could borrow less than 120k at USC. I even granted 120k as bolded above. I don't have a dog in the fight either, other than bias against 200k+ debt levels for students who "aren't good at cost/benefit analysis."

Assuming extended term repayment (30yrs), and 130k after interest (7.9%), OP could pay back at a rate of 950/mo (USC).

Assuming the same for Cornell, 235k after interest, OP would pay back at a rate of 1700/mo.

The between loan payments difference being $800/mo for 30 years between USC and Cornell assuming OP doesn't negotiate Cornell down. Basically 10,000 per year for 30 years, a difference of $300,000 over the lifetime of the loan.

OP says he sucks at cost/benefit analysis. He should at least understand the costs. I'll let someone else present the benefits, bc I don't have all of that information to compare.

Thank you guys for all of your input. Since reading the arguments for Cornell, my decision has become even more difficult.

Just to clarify I tried and failed to negotiate anything from Cornell. Thoughts?