Mich (30k) v. Penn Forum

[benb]

looking for input on final decision. interested in biglaw, but not married to the idea (i.e. would like flexibility). similarly, i'm interested in working on the east coast, but would like geographical flexibility. does the $ from michigan make this an easy choice b/t otherwise peer schools?

[enzo66]

looking for input on final decision. interested in biglaw, but not married to the idea (i.e. would like flexibility). similarly, i'm interested in working on the east coast, but would like geographical flexibility. does the $ from michigan make this an easy choice b/t otherwise peer schools?

Absent other persuasive factors, yes.

[rayiner]

Would you mind working in NYC? If not, then Penn.

[bobbyh1919]

Even though I don't love the idea of Penn at sticker, I'd pick it here. While these schools are commonly recognized as being in the same tier, Penn's placement (especially in BigLaw) over the past few years has been awesome, whereas Michigan has struggled somewhat. The scholarship at Michigan is nice but not really a game changer IMO. I would certainly pay an extra $30K if it meant an extra 10-15% chance at a BigLaw gig.

[benb]

thanks for the input

[CanadianWolf]

Penn since you want the East Coast & $10k per year isn't enough to go with Michigan's lower biglaw placement stats.

[fakehunter]

The 30k is total, right? Not per year?

[benb]

yeah total, 10/year

[shaville]

Michigan is the obvious choice here- 30k is a ton of money. I know 30k might sound like some intangible abstraction at this point, but it is real money and it will suck to pay it back.

[bobbyh1919]

Michigan is the obvious choice here- 30k is a ton of money. I know 30k might sound like some intangible abstraction at this point, but it is real money and it will suck to pay it back.

If you're gonna go 210K in debt or 180K in debt, you're going to need a biglaw salary to pay it back. I'd easily take the 210K and add the extra percentage in my favor. BTW, I just saw in another thread that UPenn's Big Law + A3 Clerkship stats for C/O 2010 > Mich's by I think 14 percent. That's 1 out of every 7 kids getting those good jobs, which certainly makes it worth it.

[johansantana21]

Penn is the obvious choice.

Mishitgan is a TTT in all aspects compared to Penn.

[benb]

thanks again

[Kirk]

Penn is the obvious choice.

Mishitgan is a TTT in all aspects compared to Penn.

So true. If one is already considering the lower end of the T-14, they should see what another school might offer. Going higher than Mich will cost, but Penn for a just a bit more is a bargain!

[shaville]

ITT: Uninformed people giving bad advice to less informed people.

[bk1]

I'd pick your personal preference of the two. Mich is slightly cheaper. Penn is slightly better for biglaw.

The price of both schools is high enough that you are still forced to cover your debt with biglaw or LRAP.

[benb]

i should mention due to savings/family contrib., i estimate my overall debt for michigan to be about 100k, whereas for Penn about 150k (given the higher tuition and cost of living).

[shaville]

i should mention due to savings/family contrib., i estimate my overall debt for michigan to be about 100k, whereas for Penn about 150k (given the higher tuition and cost of living).

I think the decision is clear. You'll be kicking yourself later if you go to Penn.

[benb]

thanks all.

[rayiner]

ITT: Uninformed people giving bad advice to less informed people.

I'm a 3L who has gone through OCI, so I'm about as informed about this topic as you're going to find. The differences evident from the available data would be worth $40k to me. OP may be kicking himself if he goes to Penn and gets the same job he would have anyway, but he might also be kicking himself if he goes to Michigan and falls into that 10% gap in placement between the two schools. Trust me, when you're in the middle of OCI, the difference between 14 interviews of 17 interviews, the difference between 3 callbacks and 4 callbacks, the extra interview slots at big NYC firms who have a lot of open positions--all of that stuff will be worth $40k to you.

[benb]

ITT: Uninformed people giving bad advice to less informed people.

I'm a 3L who has gone through OCI, so I'm about as informed about this topic as you're going to find. The differences evident from the available data would be worth $40k to me. OP may be kicking himself if he goes to Penn and gets the same job he would have anyway, but he might also be kicking himself if he goes to Michigan and falls into that 10% gap in placement between the two schools. Trust me, when you're in the middle of OCI, the difference between 14 interviews of 17 interviews, the difference between 3 callbacks and 4 callbacks, the extra interview slots at big NYC firms who have a lot of open positions--all of that stuff will be worth $40k to you.

and what if i decide biglaw isn't the end-all be-all for me...is the choice still penn?

[johansantana21]

ITT: Uninformed people giving bad advice to less informed people.

I'm a 3L who has gone through OCI, so I'm about as informed about this topic as you're going to find. The differences evident from the available data would be worth $40k to me. OP may be kicking himself if he goes to Penn and gets the same job he would have anyway, but he might also be kicking himself if he goes to Michigan and falls into that 10% gap in placement between the two schools. Trust me, when you're in the middle of OCI, the difference between 14 interviews of 17 interviews, the difference between 3 callbacks and 4 callbacks, the extra interview slots at big NYC firms who have a lot of open positions--all of that stuff will be worth $40k to you.

and what if i decide biglaw isn't the end-all be-all for me...is the choice still penn?

Yes because Penn is better at everything that matters than Mishitgan.

[rayiner]

and what if i decide biglaw isn't the end-all be-all for me...is the choice still penn?

I don't think Penn will give you an edge over Michigan when it comes to government, public interest, etc. But I don't think it will be any worse either. That said, you should do 2L OCI. With the state of public interest hiring right now, it's a potentially career-ending mistake to decide that you "don't want big law." Do 2L OCI, then hunt around for PI during 3L. Some organizations will hold it against you if you don't do something PI-related during your 2L summer, but you can almost always find your way back, either by doing some sort of public interest fellowship after graduation or after a couple of years at a firm. If you put all your eggs in the public interest/government basket, then you run a substantial risk of graduating unemployed even with solid grades.

[benb]

any michigan supporters out there?

[keg411]

any michigan supporters out there?

I'll half-bite, since I'm a 2L at Michigan and voted for Michigan. The difference between M and P for OCI and NYC is overstated -- people here did fine for BigLaw and I've heard of zero complaints or rumbles of unhappiness or extreme worry about the job situation among 2L's. There is a shockingly high number of people that just don't do OCI and have zero desire for BigLaw. So you might as well just take the money unless you visit both and like Penn better. (And I'd strongly recommend visiting both)

Also, if you get screwed for whatever reason, we have a better LRAP as it covers any legal job where you make under $80k. So there's that.

FWIW, If your choice was between M and P both at sticker, I would've voted for Penn. I loved Penn. They just didn't love me back .

[benb]

any michigan supporters out there?

I'll half-bite, since I'm a 2L at Michigan and voted for Michigan. The difference between M and P for OCI and NYC is overstated -- people here did fine for BigLaw and I've heard of zero complaints or rumbles of unhappiness or extreme worry about the job situation among 2L's. There is a shockingly high number of people that just don't do OCI and have zero desire for BigLaw. So you might as well just take the money unless you visit both and like Penn better. (And I'd strongly recommend visiting both)

Also, if you get screwed for whatever reason, we have a better LRAP as it covers any legal job where you make under $80k. So there's that.

FWIW, If your choice was between M and P both at sticker, I would've voted for Penn. I loved Penn. They just didn't love me back .

thanks keg that's really helpful. the nlj #'s discrepancy b/t penn and mich this past year looks worrying so it's nice to hear from a current student.