USD vs NYU Forum

[LSHopeful91]

Hello everybody,

I wanted to bring this decision to the boards because I thought I was certain about going to NYU, but then I got my scholarship information from San Diego. I got the Dean's Honor Scholarship, which total amounts to $117,000 without stipulations.

Info:
I'm going to law school straight from undergraduate education. I'm originally from San Diego. I plan on studying corporate law (but it's not a certainty). Biglaw is desired. I don't care where I live after law school, and I am pretty debt averse. I only have about 6k in the bank, and I would be paying exclusively through loans if I were to attend NYU.

Are the dividends from going to NYU enough to outweigh the costs of attending, or should I take the scholarship at USD and live with my family?

Thanks, and let me know any other relevant information I could put on this post.

[johansantana21]

While NYU is clearly inferior to Columbia, in this case NYU is still worth going to.

[quiver]

Biglaw is desired. I don't care where I live after law school

This is what made me vote for NYU. Biglaw will be about 10x easier out of NYU than out of USD. Yes, that's a shitton of debt (especially with NYC COL) but if you do indeed get biglaw and are responsible with your finances you should be okay paying it back.

While NYU is clearly inferior to Columbia, in this case NYU is still worth going to.

Oh and not that this matters but CLS and NYU are peers.

[dixiecupdrinking]

You're highly unlikely to get a biglaw job from USD but I would not recommend to my worst enemy taking out $210k+ in non-dischargeable loans straight from college. You've got to think about the endgame. Even if you get that biglaw job (and frankly, at NYU the odds are well in favor though far from certain), then what? You'll spend your mid- to late-20s working your ass off and spending most of your disposable income paying down your debt. You'll most likely be gone from biglaw by around age 30, hopefully with your student loans paid off, but with little to nothing in the bank and likely never to make as high a salary for the rest of your career. Why do you want to do that to yourself? What do you know about biglaw that makes you believe it's worth being in that position? For some people it is worth it due to their specific career aspirations, but why do you want to do it?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't know what to recommend.

[rad lulz]

No options in the middle?

[blaw2010]

If you want to practice BigLaw in New York for your whole life, go to NYU. If you want to live in San Diego, go to USD and take a class from Professor Portnoy (sp?). He's known around the world as one of the best in corporate and securities law. One recommendation from him will get you into any large law firm in NYC or San Diego.

[bk1]

One recommendation from him will get you into any large law firm in NYC or San Diego.

skepticalhippo.jpg

[LSHopeful91]

I have also been admitted to Georgetown, Texas, and Cardozo. Of those three, only Cardozo has given me money (35k per year), but after being sued and a significant drop in the rankings, I'm Cardozo-averse.

[barbaraeliz]

Just curious, was this their original offer? USD originally gave me 18, then bumped it up to 31k this week.

[LSHopeful91]

Just curious, was this their original offer? USD originally gave me 18, then bumped it up to 31k this week.

Yeah, I got the offer about a week after being admitted.

[BobbyDylan]

Wait a cycle and apply to UCLA, Boalt, and USC. Take the best offer. Use your connections in the SoCal to get the best job you can.

[bdole2]

Wait a cycle and apply to UCLA, Boalt, and USC. Take the best offer. Use your connections in the SoCal to get the best job you can.

+1. Why didn't you apply to USC / UCLA this cycle?

[rayiner]

If you want big law, USD isn't even an option, so you don't really have a choice to make.

but with little to nothing in the bank and likely never to make as high a salary for the rest of your career. Why do you want to do that to yourself?

First, this isn't really true. People usually take a salary cut when they leave big law, but in-house compensation is quite solid: http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Dow ... e_2012.pdf

In-house salaries for someone with 4-9 years of legal experience (i.e. what you'd make as a 4th year leaving to go in-house) is about $100k-$180k (25th-75th %-ile). For 10+ years it's $130k-$225k. This is a national average, adjust upwards 10-25% for major cities like Chicago or New York.

Second, big law is the most straightforward path into other desirable legal jobs, especially in this economy. Government and mid-size firms regularly hire people leaving big law. I took an environmental law clinic class this semester, and we had a lot of environmental lawyers come in and speak to us. These folks worked desirable jobs at public interest organizations, but a large majority had done a stint in big law first.

With the DOJ cutting to the bone and other Federal and state agencies on hiring freeze, I'd recommend that even people looking to do public interest work suck it up and do big law first.

[LSHopeful91]

Wait a cycle and apply to UCLA, Boalt, and USC. Take the best offer. Use your connections in the SoCal to get the best job you can.

+1. Why didn't you apply to USC / UCLA this cycle?

I applied to USC and have yet to hear a response. I got rejected from Boalt (I'm a Berkeley undergrad and they're not fond of recidivism). I didn't want to apply to both USC and UCLA. The thing is, I don't know where I want to be after law school. So while a SoCal school would be nice, I"m not committed to staying in Southern California.

[Easy-E]

No options in the middle?

+1

Did you apply to any other T-14 that might have offered you $$?

[LSHopeful91]

You're highly unlikely to get a biglaw job from USD but I would not recommend to my worst enemy taking out $210k+ in non-dischargeable loans straight from college. You've got to think about the endgame. Even if you get that biglaw job (and frankly, at NYU the odds are well in favor though far from certain), then what? You'll spend your mid- to late-20s working your ass off and spending most of your disposable income paying down your debt. You'll most likely be gone from biglaw by around age 30, hopefully with your student loans paid off, but with little to nothing in the bank and likely never to make as high a salary for the rest of your career. Why do you want to do that to yourself? What do you know about biglaw that makes you believe it's worth being in that position? For some people it is worth it due to their specific career aspirations, but why do you want to do it?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't know what to recommend.

I respect the honesty

[LSHopeful91]

No options in the middle?

+1

Did you apply to any other T-14 that might have offered you $$?

I got waitlisted at MPVD, so it's either NYU or Georgetown within the T-14

[bdole2]

I applied to USC and have yet to hear a response. I got rejected from Boalt (I'm a Berkeley undergrad and they're not fond of recidivism). I didn't want to apply to both USC and UCLA. The thing is, I don't know where I want to be after law school. So while a SoCal school would be nice, I"m not committed to staying in Southern California.

Then don't go to USD.

[BobbyDylan]

I didn't want to apply to both USC and UCLA

[rad lulz]

.

[splitbrain]

Then don't go to USD.

[LSHopeful91]

I didn't want to apply to both USC and UCLA

+1 this is srsly dumb

Sorry. To clarify, it's because I didn't have enough money during the application process to put $100 for both, and neither gave me a fee waiver.

[dixiecupdrinking]

If you want big law, USD isn't even an option, so you don't really have a choice to make.

but with little to nothing in the bank and likely never to make as high a salary for the rest of your career. Why do you want to do that to yourself?

First, this isn't really true. People usually take a salary cut when they leave big law, but in-house compensation is quite solid: http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Dow ... e_2012.pdf

In-house salaries for someone with 4-9 years of legal experience (i.e. what you'd make as a 4th year leaving to go in-house) is about $100k-$180k (25th-75th %-ile). For 10+ years it's $130k-$225k. This is a national average, adjust upwards 10-25% for major cities like Chicago or New York.

Second, big law is the most straightforward path into other desirable legal jobs, especially in this economy. Government and mid-size firms regularly hire people leaving big law. I took an environmental law clinic class this semester, and we had a lot of environmental lawyers come in and speak to us. These folks worked desirable jobs at public interest organizations, but a large majority had done a stint in big law first.

With the DOJ cutting to the bone and other Federal and state agencies on hiring freeze, I'd recommend that even people looking to do public interest work suck it up and do big law first.

Yeah, I agree you are right about much of this. My main point though is that it's difficult to know what you're getting into by taking on $200k+ debt as a college senior. It's easy to say, "I'll get biglaw and pay it back," but that 1) isn't an end in itself, given the short shelf life of your average associate, and 2) tends to greatly undervalue the pressure and lost opportunities that come with spending close to a decade with that kind of debt hanging over you.

Upshot is that for OP's goals, s/he should do NYU over USD but I would just caution anyone against going to (any) law school at sticker price straight from college.

[bdole2]

Sorry. To clarify, it's because I didn't have enough money during the application process to put $100 for both, and neither gave me a fee waiver.

You couldn't borrow $100 bucks from someone? The potential scholarship money (tens of thousands?) you could have gotten would more than make up for that cost...