Minnesota vs. Colorado vs. Nebraska Forum

[wallflower1987]

Hey everybody; trying to choose between my top 3 schools. Help me out! (Retake advice will be ignored!)

Edit: I do not really have a preference about living in these three states, per se... but I would say that if I had to rank them, I would rank Nebraska and Colorado ahead of Minnesota (but in no particular order). So it really comes down to which school you would pick (not wanting to work in NY, LA, DC, etc.).

Edit: I do not want to "get" to any particular market (east coast or west coast, etc). I will practice where I can. I want to stay in the upper Midwest, but I really don't care which state. I have no special connections to any of these states, although I am from South Dakota (so they are all very close).

[danquayle]

Hey everybody; trying to choose between my top 3 schools. Help me out! (Retake advice will be ignored, but feel free to post it if you really must!)

Need to know where you want to work and where you have connections. All things equal, probably Minnesota.

[wallflower1987]

Hey everybody; trying to choose between my top 3 schools. Help me out! (Retake advice will be ignored, but feel free to post it if you really must!)

Need to know where you want to work and where you have connections. All things equal, probably Minnesota.

Hey, see edit; I have no preference. I am from South Dakota, so I have no connections to any of the states, and I don't care which one I work in. So all things mostly are equal. Please vote your opinion!

Okay, edit again: it is possible I could end up back in South Dakota (where wages kinda suck) so consider that when contemplating turning down a full ride... Otherwise, I will only have the connections to those states that I make when I get there.

[patrickd139]

Not going to suggest a retake, as your GPA is low enough that it probably would take a 180 to break into the T14.

I echo the above poster who asked where you want to practice. If it's in Nebraska, then UNL. Twin Cities? UMN. Denver, Idaho, Wyoming, NM, etc.? Colorado. I'd be tempted to ignore the scholarships--they're all fairly similar total cost and location matters so much more with those schools anyway.

ETA: in lieu of the edit--If you truly want to practice in NE, then UNL. If CO, then Colorado. It really is that simple, IMO.

[wallflower1987]

Not going to suggest a retake, as your GPA is low enough that it probably would take a 180 to break into the T14.

I echo the above poster who asked where you want to practice. If it's in Nebraska, then UNL. Twin Cities? UMN. Denver, Idaho, Wyoming, NM, etc.? Colorado. I'd be tempted to ignore the scholarships--they're all fairly similar total cost and location matters so much more with those schools anyway.

Hey, thanks for responding! Please look at my edited response to other poster and let me know what you think. Also, the amount I would borrow for the schools would be about $45,000 for Nebraska, about $100,000 for Minnesota and about $115,000 for Colorado.

[romothesavior]

If you think you can get back to SD, go to Nebraska since it'll be cheapest. I think UMN is the best option for most people here though, I dunno.

[wallflower1987]

If you think you can get back to SD, go to Nebraska since it'll be cheapest. I think UMN is the best option for most people here though, I dunno.

Hey, thanks! I should clarify: I do not WANT to end up in South Dakota, I just might because it is where I have lived for the past 15 years. Not by choice though; so please consider all three states as home/not home/on a level playing field in that regard. If I want to get back into South Dakota, I think all three are considered roughly equal here (maybe Minnesota and Nebraska are above Colorado). Assuming I had no preference between Twin Cities, Lincoln/Omaha, and Denver/Boulder/etc, and I would only end up back in South Dakota in the event of an emergency, what would you choose?

[Jaeger]

Considering no geographic preference, I would say UMN. While CO is gonna be the most beautiful area to live, that's not much money, plus both there and Nebraska have TTT stips. Besides that, the twin cities are pretty bitchin' and considering you're from South Dakota, you can handle the cold. Really, I would say your scholly offer there is a real outperformance of your numbers and you should run with it.

[geoduck]

UMN. You don't care where you end up, are from one state over, and it's the best of the three schools. UMN wins unless you're very debt averse, in which case Nebraska. But tha probably has worse stipulations and it's in Nebraska. Why is Colorado on this list?

[wallflower1987]

Considering no geographic preference, I would say UMN. While CO is gonna be the most beautiful area to live, that's not much money, plus both there and Nebraska have TTT stips. Besides that, the twin cities are pretty bitchin' and considering you're from South Dakota, you can handle the cold. Really, I would say your scholly offer there is a real outperformance of your numbers and you should run with it.

According to the LSN profile, it's actually about what I expected (once I was admitted, that is). I may be able to negotiate Nebraska stips off, and CO is really stingy with money (not good for a school with those career numbers)... I can handle the cold, for sure... I should add that I already had to pay for undergrad and a master's and would rather not borrow a lot... so I am somewhat borrowing averse...

[geoduck]

A top 50% stipulation should concern you, then. On this great thing called the bell curve, the difference between being in the 49th percentile and 51st percentile is tiny.

[wallflower1987]

UMN. You don't care where you end up, are from one state over, and it's the best of the three schools. UMN wins unless you're very debt averse, in which case Nebraska. But tha probably has worse stipulations and it's in Nebraska. Why is Colorado on this list?

Hey, I know Colorado doesn't make much sense... it offers nothing. Ranked lower than Minnesota and offers much less than either of the other two. I just wanted to see what people thought. Mostly I want to know if people think borrowing $35,000 per year at Minnesota is better than borrowing $15,000 per year at Nebraska. I know there is a pretty die-hard group that will always pick the higher ranked school, but I am really leaning toward Nebraska and kinda want to know if people think that is a huge mistake (or a mistake at all). I prefer Nebraska to Minnesota, and I already have pretty big debt from B.A. and M.A., plus I don't plan on going way east, west or south. So realistically, we're talking very possible non-profit or government work.

I really appreciate everyone's input; here are some thoughts to explain the logical portion of my choice (beyond being a Huskers fan and disliking the Vikings, the Twins, and pretty much everything about Minnesota outside the law school) aside from the obvious of lower debt.
* lower debt means greater flexibility in choosing a job.
* it would probably be at least somewhat easier to finish higher in my class at Nebraska (not easy, just not as hard as Minnesota)
* I don't plan on going to biglaw markets anyway, so I don't know how much the high-end of Minnesota's potential affects me
* rankings are skewed at least somewhat by the cost of living where their grads place
* rankings for Minnesota are probably affected somewhat by the school's relatively wider reach and its placement outside the area (like in Chicago, and DC, NY, West, etc), and those numbers don't apply to my situation... so there probably isn't as big of a difference between the prospects I would look at coming out of Minnesota vs Nebraska as there appears to be in the rankings
* I resent Minnesota requiring me to buy that ugly, overpriced laptop right away
* daniel pi has at least one point: the Minnesota law building is seriously outclassed by its peers
* I can handle the cold, but I hate it.
* I had planned on going south. I never thought I'd get into Minnesota. Most my applications went south because I planned on escaping some of the cold (not necessarily altogether, but at least a little).

This should be a thread about whether or not it would be a mistake to choose Nebraska over the scholarship at Minnesota. Even if it is, I guess it can't be that expensive of a mistake... at least Nebraska would be very cheap. I really do appreciate everybody's advice, but most are not from Minnesota and are basing their choice on the rankings because that is the smart thing to do when you are looking at a school in another area and if you are willing to go anywhere after school in order to get the highest paying job possible. I am talking to Minnesota about negotiating the scholarship up. I don't see it happening but as it is, I don't know if I can turn down full tuition and borrow $40,000 a year just to turn around and very realistically fight for the same level of jobs in three years.

[wallflower1987]

A top 50% stipulation should concern you, then. On this great thing called the bell curve, the difference between being in the 49th percentile and 51st percentile is tiny.

I know; I am actually negotiating that right now with Nebraska, and it sounds somewhat promising. I'm trying to use the Minnesota scholarship to have them drop the stipulations to good standing only. I have been relatively nice, but I think if they know I am very seriously looking at coming to Nebraska, they may be lenient. I will definitely note that if it happens; I should know tomorrow.

[geoduck]

If you are planning on actively pursuing government/nonprofit work, loan forgiveness is your friend!

And yeah, I'd probably only consider Nebraska if they drop that stipulation. The twin cities winter is at least a touch better than SD from what I've heard... And the placement statistics for UMN are better than Nebraska, which seems to be the main factor you are concerned with.

Edit: Or just choose by architecture. Maybe I should've taken that full ride to Seattle U after all...

[bjsesq]

I am so sorry that you are from South Dakota.

[Jaeger]

I am so sorry that you are from South Dakota.

This. Also, most of your MN dislike seems like it comes from silly reasons (sports rivalries, etc). You should probably get over that.

If you hate the cold, Nebraska really isn't gonna be much better than the Twin Cities.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

I think the decision should come down to Nebraska and Minnesota. I was initially going to say Minnesota just because I assumed their placement was significantly better, but after looking at both self-reported numbers I was surprised. UNL's numbers aren't the best, which I figured, but neither are Minnesota's (only 67% of class of 2010 has a long-term position? Yikes!).
http://law.unl.edu/career/employment_statistics.shtml
http://www.law.umn.edu/careers/career-f ... stics.html

You're doing a good job of limiting debt with either choice. For me, it would come down to job prospects. That means Minnesota probably wins, but it wasn't as obvious as I had thought.

[wallflower1987]

I am so sorry that you are from South Dakota.

This. Also, most of your MN dislike seems like it comes from silly reasons (sports rivalries, etc). You should probably get over that.

If you hate the cold, Nebraska really isn't gonna be much better than the Twin Cities.

See I know... I'm not relishing the idea of walking away from a top 20 acceptance any more than I'm looking forward to giving up full tuition. I have other T1 acceptances (American, George Mason, Colorado) but Minnesota somehow gave me more money than any of them. And it was the highest rank school I applied to... never dreamed I'd face this dilemma. I don't have a MN dislike, per se... I am having a hard time choosing either school and settling on it.

Also, I know the weather patterns... I know Nebraska isn't WAY warmer than Minnesota, but it is definitely noticeable. Although Minnesota is no colder than what I'm used to, so that isn't really a reason I don't want to go there. Why couldn't Minnesota offer me the full ride? Or why couldn't Nebraska be #19? Either of those would solve my problem.

My biggest concern with Minnesota is the salary information: MN has a somewhat more national reach. How much, though? I want to stay in the upper Midwest; is Minnesota's salary information misleadingly inflated by placements in Chicago, DC, East and West coasts, and if so, how much? Because those don't affect me. The biggest difference I expect is whatever I can get in Minneapolis/St. Paul compared to what I can get in Nebraska or SD. But how big is that difference? It is bound to be smaller than the reported difference, which still includes the advantage Minnesota gains from having better national reach and placement. Not to mention, I am a better test-taker than most at Nebraska, whereas my test-taking skills would be 50-75 percentile at Minnesota... still plenty who are as good or better. Would I be better off finishing in the top 25% at Nebraska or finishing around 50th percentile at Minnesota? Who can know? Isn't it kinda a gamble? (that's for argument's sake, I don't actually believe that the LSAT predicts class rank) Will the difference be enough to cover a $60,000 difference and more? Not expressing doubt, just honestly asking; please chime in!

Also, how difficult are grad loans to get (PLUS, that is)? Direct will not cover it at Minnesota, so I would need to get serious PLUS loans too.

[Jaeger]

See I know... I'm not relishing the idea of walking away from a top 20 acceptance any more than I'm looking forward to giving up full tuition. I have other T1 acceptances (American, George Mason, Colorado) but Minnesota somehow gave me more money than any of them. And it was the highest rank school I applied to... never dreamed I'd face this dilemma. I don't have a MN dislike, per se... I am having a hard time choosing either school and settling on it.

Also, I know the weather patterns... I know Nebraska isn't WAY warmer than Minnesota, but it is definitely noticeable. Although Minnesota is no colder than what I'm used to, so that isn't really a reason I don't want to go there. Why couldn't Minnesota offer me the full ride? Or why couldn't Nebraska be #19? Either of those would solve my problem.

My biggest concern with Minnesota is the salary information: MN has a somewhat more national reach. How much, though? I want to stay in the upper Midwest; is Minnesota's salary information misleadingly inflated by placements in Chicago, DC, East and West coasts, and if so, how much? Because those don't affect me. The biggest difference I expect is whatever I can get in Minneapolis/St. Paul compared to what I can get in Nebraska or SD. But how big is that difference? It is bound to be smaller than the reported difference, which still includes the advantage Minnesota gains from having better national reach and placement. Not to mention, I am a better test-taker than most at Nebraska, whereas my test-taking skills would be 50-75 percentile at Minnesota... still plenty who are as good or better. Would I be better off finishing in the top 25% at Nebraska or finishing around 50th percentile at Minnesota? Who can know? Isn't it kinda a gamble? (that's for argument's sake, I don't actually believe that the LSAT predicts class rank) Will the difference be enough to cover a $60,000 difference and more? Not expressing doubt, just honestly asking; please chime in!

Also, how difficult are grad loans to get (PLUS, that is)? Direct will not cover it at Minnesota, so I would need to get serious PLUS loans too.

I don't think the salary data is inflated by big markets because to be frank, UMN doesn't place well in these markets. The salary info seems to represent a secondary market (MSP) rates of pay.

Also, from what I understand, just because the school is better, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll finish lower in the class. And grad+ loans are pretty easy to get provided your other loans aren't defaulted.

[wallflower1987]

I think the decision should come down to Nebraska and Minnesota. I was initially going to say Minnesota just because I assumed their placement was significantly better, but after looking at both self-reported numbers I was surprised. UNL's numbers aren't the best, which I figured, but neither are Minnesota's (only 67% of class of 2010 has a long-term position? Yikes!).
http://law.unl.edu/career/employment_statistics.shtml
http://www.law.umn.edu/careers/career-f ... stics.html

You're doing a good job of limiting debt with either choice. For me, it would come down to job prospects. That means Minnesota probably wins, but it wasn't as obvious as I had thought.

I know; Minnesota does appear to have good numbers, but they have a pretty low number of private sector employees reporting salaries (37% compared to 55% at Nebraska). I have to guess that the 37% represent the top 37%, or thereabouts... another factor that shrinks the gap between the two. It is a really hard choice to make because both options have their shortcomings, and both have their strengths. I did some research, and in real dollars, Minneapolis is about 1.2 times as expensive as Lincoln. That's 6/5, so to make the school's salary information roughly equal, I would only need to make more like 60k coming out of Nebraska to have the same life I would have making 80k in Minneapolis. So unless I finished at the very, VERY top of my Minnesota class, or if I were able to get something in a larger market (probably would have to be very very top for that), is there much of a difference between the two? Like, enough to justify $60,000+ in additional debt?

This decision is not as easy as a lot of people pretend; glad you see that too. I am not 100% committed to either state, but I would rather be in Nebraska if possible. I am trying to gauge whether or not that would be widely considered a mistake. I know there is not an easy answer as to which option is empirically better (there really is no answer, in fact)... i just want to know if it would be foolish, all other things being equal, to choose Nebraska over Minnesota (provided I can get Nebraska to remove stips, which I am going to work very hard on).

[t14fanboy]

Not going to suggest a retake, as your GPA is low enough that it probably would take a 180 to break into the T14.

I echo the above poster who asked where you want to practice. If it's in Nebraska, then UNL. Twin Cities? UMN. Denver, Idaho, Wyoming, NM, etc.? Colorado. I'd be tempted to ignore the scholarships--they're all fairly similar total cost and location matters so much more with those schools anyway.

ETA: in lieu of the edit--If you truly want to practice in NE, then UNL. If CO, then Colorado. It really is that simple, IMO.

Patently false. A 172 and a wise use of ED would do the trick.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

I think the decision should come down to Nebraska and Minnesota. I was initially going to say Minnesota just because I assumed their placement was significantly better, but after looking at both self-reported numbers I was surprised. UNL's numbers aren't the best, which I figured, but neither are Minnesota's (only 67% of class of 2010 has a long-term position? Yikes!).
http://law.unl.edu/career/employment_statistics.shtml
http://www.law.umn.edu/careers/career-f ... stics.html

You're doing a good job of limiting debt with either choice. For me, it would come down to job prospects. That means Minnesota probably wins, but it wasn't as obvious as I had thought.

I know; Minnesota does appear to have good numbers, but they have a pretty low number of private sector employees reporting salaries (37% compared to 55% at Nebraska). I have to guess that the 37% represent the top 37%, or thereabouts... another factor that shrinks the gap between the two. It is a really hard choice to make because both options have their shortcomings, and both have their strengths. I did some research, and in real dollars, Minneapolis is about 1.2 times as expensive as Lincoln. That's 6/5, so to make the school's salary information roughly equal, I would only need to make more like 60k coming out of Nebraska to have the same life I would have making 80k in Minneapolis. So unless I finished at the very, VERY top of my Minnesota class, or if I were able to get something in a larger market (probably would have to be very very top for that), is there much of a difference between the two? Like, enough to justify $60,000+ in additional debt?

This decision is not as easy as a lot of people pretend; glad you see that too. I am not 100% committed to either state, but I would rather be in Nebraska if possible. I am trying to gauge whether or not that would be widely considered a mistake. I know there is not an easy answer as to which option is empirically better (there really is no answer, in fact)... i just want to know if it would be foolish, all other things being equal, to choose Nebraska over Minnesota (provided I can get Nebraska to remove stips, which I am going to work very hard on).

One thing you might try: Use nalp (--LinkRemoved-- ) to look through the firms in Minnesota and Nebraska. Pay attention to how much they pay and how big that particular office is. Then start asking around in each schools respective threads for 2L's and 3L's on where you would need to be class rank wise to be competitive for those firms.

[Randomnumbers]

Not going to suggest a retake, as your GPA is low enough that it probably would take a 180 to break into the T14.

I echo the above poster who asked where you want to practice. If it's in Nebraska, then UNL. Twin Cities? UMN. Denver, Idaho, Wyoming, NM, etc.? Colorado. I'd be tempted to ignore the scholarships--they're all fairly similar total cost and location matters so much more with those schools anyway.

ETA: in lieu of the edit--If you truly want to practice in NE, then UNL. If CO, then Colorado. It really is that simple, IMO.

Patently false. A 172 and a wise use of ED would do the trick.

I'll note that this isn't necessarily true. Once you get to the 2.8 range, you run into serious GPA floor issues. Looking at Penn, Cornell, Georgetown, UVA - the lowest GPA I see is a 2.93 UVA ED. As a very serious splitter myself, I know that my 'wise use of ED' wasn't around with a 172+.

[bjsesq]

My biggest concern with Minnesota is the salary information: MN has a somewhat more national reach. How much, though? I want to stay in the upper Midwest; is Minnesota's salary information misleadingly inflated by placements in Chicago, DC, East and West coasts, and if so, how much? Because those don't affect me. The biggest difference I expect is whatever I can get in Minneapolis/St. Paul compared to what I can get in Nebraska or SD. But how big is that difference? It is bound to be smaller than the reported difference, which still includes the advantage Minnesota gains from having better national reach and placement. Not to mention, I am a better test-taker than most at Nebraska, whereas my test-taking skills would be 50-75 percentile at Minnesota... still plenty who are as good or better. Would I be better off finishing in the top 25% at Nebraska or finishing around 50th percentile at Minnesota? Who can know? Isn't it kinda a gamble? (that's for argument's sake, I don't actually believe that the LSAT predicts class rank) Will the difference be enough to cover a $60,000 difference and more? Not expressing doubt, just honestly asking; please chime in!

A few points, fellow South Dakotan:

1. You refer to your test taking skills, and where you fall percentile wise in that context. Knock it off. This is a very specific test you are referring to: the LSAT. The correlation between LSAT success and law school exam success is spotty. Why? Because they aren't the same thing.

2. Minnesota is employing more grads than Nebraska. Part of this has to do with the market they serve. The cities are simply bigger and offer more opportunity than Omaha. Minnesota isn't great, but it is better. And really, Omaha is a bit of a shit hole, dude. The city has still all but refused to clean up the wasteland that is the north side. Sure, Minneapolis' north side isn't all that nice, but there is a lot more that IS nice in the cities than there is in Omaha.

3. Firms. There are a decent number of good sized firms in Minneapolis. Dorsey, Faegre, Briggs, Maslon, RKMC, etc. Kutak Rock is obviously the big dog in Omaha, with a couple other firms of decent size and practice groups. The rest are tiny local offices of national firms. The variety of employers is greater in Minneapolis.

4. The money is the number one concern here, for me. 60k is a big amount of money. I am debt averse as hell, but if it came down to Nebraska v. Minnesota, given the options you have mentioned, I would go to Minnesota. Nebraska is just a shit institution, man. Imo, of course.

[thexfactor]

This is one of the few instances where a retake wouldn't help the OP unless the Op can get his gpa over 3.0

I would just go to MINN. Better chance of biglaw compared to colorado and nebraska.