Top Law Schools

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kimsatcat wrote:I found lots of hateful comments on WUSTL in general (their ranking is hyped and such..). I also found some stats regarding NLJ250 employment, and it seems WUSTL is not great, but not significantly worse than other non-t14 schools... So, if one is thinking about big law (doesnt care about the region), how bad is it to go to WUSTL, instead of BU/BC/Vandy (or non-T6 T14 schools)?

BU/BC/Vandy (and a few other T30s) are significantly better for biglaw than WUSTL.
If I remember correctly (can't look it up right now - someone please correct me if im wrong) WUSTL's biglaw placement is in the single digits. There are a handful of T2's with better biglaw placement than that
Not that I'd recommend a T2 over WUSTL, it's just that WUSTL doesnt really feed into biglaw, so if that's your goal don't go there.
My understanding is that WUSTL predominantly feeds into mud law in the Midwest.

Talk to romothesaviour - hr can tell you a lot about WUSTL

dingbat wrote:

kimsatcat wrote:I found lots of hateful comments on WUSTL in general (their ranking is hyped and such..). I also found some stats regarding NLJ250 employment, and it seems WUSTL is not great, but not significantly worse than other non-t14 schools... So, if one is thinking about big law (doesnt care about the region), how bad is it to go to WUSTL, instead of BU/BC/Vandy (or non-T6 T14 schools)?

BU/BC/Vandy (and a few other T30s) are significantly better for biglaw than WUSTL.
If I remember correctly (can't look it up right now - someone please correct me if im wrong) WUSTL's biglaw placement is in the single digits. There are a handful of T2's with better biglaw placement than that
Not that I'd recommend a T2 over WUSTL, it's just that WUSTL doesnt really feed into biglaw, so if that's your goal don't go there.
My understanding is that WUSTL predominantly feeds into mud law in the Midwest.

Talk to romothesaviour - hr can tell you a lot about WUSTL

a single digit? I guess the reality is worse than the data that I found on the web!

kimsatcat wrote:(their ranking is hyped and such..)

wut

It's not single digits, but it's not that great either. Page our resident WUSTL expert, Romo, if you want the most informed answers.

kimsatcat wrote:how bad is it to go to WUSTL, instead of BU/BC/Vandy (or non-T6 T14 schools)?

It's not "bad" but your odds of getting work at a biglaw firm that pays market salary are much smaller at WUSTL/BU/BC/Vandy than they are at any T14 school. There is a significant difference in placement at biglaw firms between T14 and non-T14 schools. Aside from USC this last year (which isn't typical of that school), there is a pretty big cliff jumping from T14 to <T14.

If biglaw is what you want I wouldn't settle for less than the T14 (maybe Vandy//UT).

Basically what bdubs said.

dingbat wrote:If I remember correctly (can't look it up right now - someone please correct me if im wrong) WUSTL's biglaw placement is in the single digits. There are a handful of T2's with better biglaw placement than that

Class of 2010 has NLJ250 placement of 18.96% 24 schools placed better than that. None of them were ranked lower than 50 in the most recent USNWR rankings.

Source: LST - http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

TommyK wrote:

dingbat wrote:If I remember correctly (can't look it up right now - someone please correct me if im wrong) WUSTL's biglaw placement is in the single digits. There are a handful of T2's with better biglaw placement than that

Class of 2010 has NLJ250 placement of 18.96% 24 schools placed better than that. None of them were ranked lower than 50 in the most recent USNWR rankings.

Source: LST - http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

I thought I was wrong. 2011 class is at 13%, placing the school 24th.
I recall seeing a single digit number regarding WUSTL in a different posting which turns out to not be NLJ numbers (related, but irrelevant to the current conversation)
My apologies for the confusion.
Also, please more that 2011 is generally considered to be an anomaly of abysmal hiring

*note that WUSTL is only 2 spots ahead of Cardozo, which is a T2. This has more to do with the markets they feed into, and not with the overall quality/placement power if the school.

Again, I shall eat my words and apologize - next time I'll make sure I have data available before I give specifics
I wasnt trolling - honest

If you want biglaw and that's all you will be happy with don't go to a non top 14 school. Unfortunately, it's really that black and white. If you only want biglaw and can go to a top 14, try your best to go to HYS or a top 14 in a secondary market that you have strong ties to (i.e if you're from the midwest go to Chicago, Michigan, or NU). If you're not from a secondary market area (i.e you're from NYC, DC, the NE in general) and would only be happy with biglaw then I would strongly suggest only going to Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Penn, or Cornell (and obviously HYS).

BruceWayne wrote:If you want biglaw and that's all you will be happy with don't go to a non top 14 school. Unfortunately, it's really that black and white. If you only want biglaw and can go to a top 14, try your best to go to HYS or a top 14 in a secondary market that you have strong ties to (i.e if you're from the midwest go to Chicago, Michigan, or NU). If you're not from a secondary market area (i.e you're from NYC, DC, the NE in general) and would only be happy with biglaw then I would strongly suggest only going to Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Penn, or Cornell (and obviously HYS).

Chicago is now considered a secondary market?

TommyK wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:If you want biglaw and that's all you will be happy with don't go to a non top 14 school. Unfortunately, it's really that black and white. If you only want biglaw and can go to a top 14, try your best to go to HYS or a top 14 in a secondary market that you have strong ties to (i.e if you're from the midwest go to Chicago, Michigan, or NU). If you're not from a secondary market area (i.e you're from NYC, DC, the NE in general) and would only be happy with biglaw then I would strongly suggest only going to Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Penn, or Cornell (and obviously HYS).

Chicago is now considered a secondary market?

I'm talking about the school. Although it basically is since you need ties or stellar grades.

Depends on what you're looking for. Vault biglaw? Good luck with that. Maybe 5-10% of the class. NLJ 250? For my class I'd estimate 20%+, maybe 25%. Throw in reputable midlaw and boutiques that are non NLJ and its maybe 25-30% on the high end. This is people with SAs now and its just an estimate. Once you take out clerkships and no offers, I imagine our NLJ 250 data for my class will be around 20%, maybe a bit higher.

So yeah, we are significantly behind Vanderbilt, and a little behind BU/BC. Its a fine choice if the cost is right or it aligns with your geographic goals. I picked it over BU and Vandy and don't regret it. But I cant tell you its on par with the schools you mentioned, because it simply isn't.

romothesavior wrote:Depends on what you're looking for. Vault biglaw? Good luck with that. Maybe 5-10% of the class. NLJ 250? For my class I'd estimate 20%+, maybe 25%. Throw in reputable midlaw and boutiques that are non NLJ and its maybe 25-30% on the high end. This is people with SAs now and its just an estimate. Once you take out clerkships and no offers, I imagine our NLJ 250 data for my class will be around 20%, maybe a bit higher.

So yeah, we are significantly behind Vanderbilt, and a little behind BU/BC. Its a fine choice if the cost is right or it aligns with your geographic goals. I picked it over BU and Vandy and don't regret it. But I cant tell you its on par with the schools you mentioned, because it simply isn't.

Seconded. Main thing is that there's a world of difference between doing well and not doing well, probably to the tune of 160k or the market salary of your choice locked up from the beginning of 2L year vs. a big struggle to find 60k-70k. That exists at other schools as well, it's just a matter of the bar being higher at WUSTL than at BC/BU/Vandy (though lower than Emory/UIUC/W&M and the like). What you should use as criteria is where you want to be geographically and (for some) whether you're willing to shell out an extra 30k-60k for the chance that you still end up at median and therefore in the same boat as you'd have been in at WUSTL, just with a more expensive ticket.

IMO the stats make the situation look worse than it is. WUSTL has a problem with the top students transferring out (in my year a lot of people in the top 15% transferred out, including 7 of the top 10). After transferring, they got the same jobs they would have gotten had they stayed at WUSTL, but they wanted the name of a T5 on their diploma. Their Biglaw employment then counts for the T5 instead of WUSTL, even though WUSTL would have gotten them the same job.

That said, I know people who came to WUSTL, did well, and had absolutely no difficultly scoring numerous offers to NYC Biglaw. I also know a few people (at least 3 off the top of my head) outside the top 1/3 who did well in Biglaw (2 in NYC, 1 in Dallas). As with any school, I do know many people in the bottom 1/2 of the class who are still struggling to find a job, but this is normal in this economy.

Overall, my impression is that the employment prospects at WUSTL are not as dismal as TLS seems to think. Honestly, I think WUSTL's exaggerated reputation of having difficulty placing students is leading some of our top students to transfer, and this is just perpetuating the bad employment stats, but that's just my 2-cents.

I know this problem is not unique to WUSTL, but I think it is especially true at WUSTL: the dissenters will always be the loudest. (Most) people who are happy with their employment situation are not boasting this information or posting it online when they know a lot of their peers are still jobless. So my advice to 0Ls would be to take the feedback you get here with a grain of salt. I couldn't be happier with my decision to come to WUSTL, and I think it opened up a lot of doors for me - equal to if not greater than the opportunities I would have had at a T14 (assuming my grades were slightly worse at the T14).

zazos wrote:IMO the stats make the situation look worse than it is. WUSTL has a problem with the top students transferring out (in my year a lot of people in the top 15% transferred out, including 7 of the top 10). After transferring, they got the same jobs they would have gotten had they stayed at WUSTL, but they wanted the name of a T5 on their diploma. Their Biglaw employment then counts for the T5 instead of WUSTL, even though WUSTL would have gotten them the same job.

Transfers-in also hurt, as few of them who aren't from STL get NLJ jobs. I don't think the transfer-out problem really hurts us relative to our peers, as I'm sure a lot of top 10 people at T20s are transferring up as well, but it is something to keep in mind when you're a 1L trying to assess your odds of a firm job as an entering 1L. These two transfer figures do affect things for those coming in. Of the 270 people who started in my class last fall, I wouldn't be surprised if 25-30%+ have an NLJ or comparable job for this summer. It's just that some got it after transferring. Also, keep in mind that the NLJ 250 is very east coast (particularly NYC) centric. I can think of 4-5 people off the top of my head with non NLJ jobs that pay very well.

Again, not saying WUSTL is anywhere as good as Vanderbilt, or even as good as BU/BC, for placement. But your odds of an NLJ 250 or comparable job as a 1L starting out at WUSTL are not single-digits (seriously, that was a stupid comment), and they are better than the data really represent. I still wouldn't recommend coming here without a sizeable scholarship because the risk of striking out are high, but let's not act like WUSTL is some TTT.

OP, if you're assessing Vandy vs. WUSTL, it is gonna come down to 1) geographic preference and 2) money. If the money is comparable or if you are aiming for the south, I'd say Vandy all the way. Also pay a visit to both schools, as both are really awesome places to be. PM me if you have any personal questions.

OP: What are your actual options ? With a 169/3.0 non-URM, I doubt that any T-18 is a realistic option.

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: What are your actual options ? With a 169/3.0 non-URM, I doubt that any T-18 is a realistic option.

he/she needs to retake and get 1 or 2 more pts. That is the best option.

Do you think Cornell will go to 3.1 and 169? they seem to take 3.3 and 169s. There are no data pts around that mark on LSN. Someone got into georgetown with a 169 and 3.2x this year non URM.
I think some other 10-18 ranked schools might pull you off the waitlist... ie georgetown cornell uva.

Really depends upon each school's applications in this down year.

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: What are your actual options ? With a 169/3.0 non-URM, I doubt that any T-18 is a realistic option.

My real score is not 3.0 exactly. However, it is still bad. FYI I already got T-18 acceptance with some scholly, if such thing as T18 exist….

…and I want to thank you for all the great comments!! I am currently interested in PI law, but I also do not want to limit my options.