Top Law Schools

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:22 am**

There is a lot of doubt that Michigan will even stay T14.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:25 am**

Desert Fox wrote:There is a lot of doubt that Michigan will even stay T14.

Hah. Hah.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:26 am**

Betharl wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:There is a lot of doubt that Michigan will even stay T14.
Hah. Hah.

I overheard a federal judge call it Michigone.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:29 am**

Michigan has never been ranked outside of the Top 10; its spot in the T14 is safe. Last year's ranking in BigLaw is most likely the result of bad advice from career services which advised students to pref Chicago. Plus Michigan places a decent portion into PI (at least relative to other T14).

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:30 am**

the numbers are the numbers. If anything the schools do anything they can to paint as rosy a picture as possible so I would keep that in mind too. Its good you view the CSO excuse objectively.

Don't look for validation of your choice of school or of your best option if thats what Michigan is to you. You'll get too many interested parties here. Michigan students who want to feel good about their own decision to go to Michigan. Michigan haters who want to rag on it. Plus people who will say that the market now is better than last year therefore it will be even better next year. If anyone could tell the future they certainly wouldn't be spending time posting on this message board. The numbers are the numbers. They tell the story.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:30 am**

Mishitgan

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:37 am**

I asked this question on a Michigan thread, and got some decent answers, although they didn't 100% explain it--bad bidding advice, the fact that many offices canceled recruiting visits so schools like Michigan without a major market nearby suffered, etc. But they uniformly agreed this past OCI was very strong, just like it was at most of the T-14.

As for the 55% figure translating to actual graduate jobs, I think it varies. NYU has 55% of it's c/o 2011 2Ls doing summer firm jobs, and 40% ended up at NLJ 250. Summer SA's at firms roughly correspond to who got Biglaw, but it doesn't translate exactly. Michigan might very well end up in the low 40's or high 30's for c/o 2012. I do agree that going from 51% to just 55% is kind of weak, considering the market did rebound somewhat that year.

But keep in mind, Michigan has never ranked high on NLJ 250 lists, even when the market was so good it was exceedingly easy to get Biglaw at any T-14 school: http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... =2&t=61206

It's a big public school which doesn't feed into one major market, and whose graduates disperse throughout the country, often to secondary markets where a lot of Cornell/NYU/Columbia/Penn grads don't go--it will generally always look a little worse on things like NLJ 250 than those schools. It also is one of the most PI-focused schools in the T-14. Cornell usually outplaces Michigan by 6-10% on NLJ lists; does that mean Cornell is just a better school for Biglaw? I think it's debatable--IMO it's not.

But I totally agree 30% when everybody else is at least around 40% looks really bad, and Michigan will definitely take a hit to its reputation as a result. I still think it's a great school.

PS--I also have reason to think NLJ 250 is not 100% accurate. It's sort of a laborious argument. PM me if you want details.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:50 am**

chimp wrote:Mishitgan

hey i'm the first one to come up with michSHITgan

see my old posts...

I think the location of the university of Michshitgan has finally caught up to the school. Located right in the middle of the rust belt close to one of the most desolate cities in the US.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:01 am**

thexfactor wrote:
chimp wrote:Mishitgan

hey i'm the first one to come up with michSHITgan

see my old posts...

I think the location of the university of Michshitgan has finally caught up to the school. Located right in the middle of the rust belt close to one of the most desolate cities in the US.

Michshitgan in the Midwaste, amirite?

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:04 am**

Still better than Michigan State if that makes the Wolverines feel better.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:06 am**

thexfactor wrote:
chimp wrote:Mishitgan

hey i'm the first one to come up with michSHITgan

see my old posts...

I think the location of the university of Michshitgan has finally caught up to the school. Located right in the middle of the rust belt close to one of the most desolate cities in the US.

At most only 10% of a Michigan Law class ever took jobs in the state.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:48 am**

ahnhub wrote: It's a big public school which doesn't feed into one major market, and whose graduates disperse throughout the country, often to secondary markets where a lot of Cornell/NYU/Columbia/Penn grads don't go--
Cornell usually outplaces Michigan by 6-10% on NLJ lists; does that mean Cornell is just a better school for Biglaw? I think it's debatable--IMO it's not.

These are the relevant factors I'm concerned about for two schools I'm seriously considering. I don't want a secondary market - looking for DC or NYC. Very recently began regretting not applying to UPenn and/or retaking.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:12 am**

gdh wrote:
ahnhub wrote: It's a big public school which doesn't feed into one major market, and whose graduates disperse throughout the country, often to secondary markets where a lot of Cornell/NYU/Columbia/Penn grads don't go--
Cornell usually outplaces Michigan by 6-10% on NLJ lists; does that mean Cornell is just a better school for Biglaw? I think it's debatable--IMO it's not.
These are the relevant factors I'm concerned about for two schools I'm seriously considering. I don't want a secondary market - looking for DC or NYC. Very recently began regretting not applying to UPenn and/or retaking.

It seems like there is a bit of self-selection going on here to help explain this. NYC, Chicago, and DC still send employers to Michigan, but a ot of Michigan grads aren't gunning for major markets (hence why they didn't go to a school that feeds into one particular city). Not having one major market can be a good thing though. Generally, firms don't like to hire too many grads from the same school. All the Cornell kids are competing against each other for the same NYC law firms (generally). Michigan kids are more spread out and thus less competitive when it comes to employment.

God, I never though I'd be doing this much trolling for Michigan (I'm a Buckeye)

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:27 am**

I think a lot of people at Michigan are interested in smaller markets and smaller firms for the same reason that they were interested in coming to Michigan instead Chicago, Northwestern, NYU, Penn, Georgetown, etc. There are plenty of people who are hoping to do government or public interest work. There are plenty of people who take law firm jobs that pay really well in Indianapolis, Columbus, Grand Rapids, Detroit, Portland, Seattle, Miami, Houston, Dallas, etc. Those jobs may not be on the NLJ250 but most of them pay 6 figures or close to it. They are great options for people who are interested in living somewhere other than New York, California, or Chicago. It would be a mistake to assume that these people could not get a job at law firm in New York or Chicago.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:31 am**

I would try to get in touch with current 2Ls to see how the job market looks for c/o 2013. By now most of the Michigan 2Ls who are going to get Biglaw have it. If you're truly concerned you can even ask the admissions office for information about the most recent OCI, or how many 2Ls have secured a summer SA position. (Although that info probably hasn't been compiled yet, in a couple months it should be). They may not want to give out exact numbers, but I would guess they would try to give an honest answer if you were persistent. If anything they should be trying to produce some cheery information as fast as possible.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:35 pm**

thexfactor wrote:
chimp wrote:Mishitgan

hey i'm the first one to come up with michSHITgan

see my old posts...

I think the location of the university of Michshitgan has finally caught up to the school. Located right in the middle of the rust belt close to one of the most desolate cities in the US.

I already applied for trademark rights to "Mishitgan." I'm getting shirts made too. Sorry bro.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:53 pm**

thexfactor wrote:
chimp wrote:Mishitgan

hey i'm the first one to come up with michSHITgan

see my old posts...

I think the location of the university of Michshitgan has finally caught up to the school. Located right in the middle of the rust belt close to one of the most desolate cities in the US.

Agreed. Some of the reasons for Michigan remaining a top law school despite having a single major market have historically probably been true. However, as the legal economy increasingly moves to larger firms in larger cities, and as the economy is bad, and the legal economy is terrible, a school like Michigan in the middle of hell without a strong main market is going to suffer more than similar schools.

Plus, there is the rustbelt problem. Everything in the rustbelt is deteriorating. A law school's prestige will carry it longer than the area's economy, but slowly and steadily this will start to wear. They ascended to high prestige when the area was an economic boom region.

Michigan's reputation is incredibly strong among the elderly, but not as strong among the younger people. This gets averaged out now. The elderly will die first.

Plus, in terms of social change, our generation is more urban than past generations. I think Michigan will have an increasingly difficult time attracting top students when they compete against elite, but not t14 schools like UT-Austin, in a large city that is only growing, and UCLA, which is a desirable place to live. The population center is moving Southwest.

In the not-too-distant future, I would guess that UT-Austin and UCLA will replace Georgetown and Michigan in the T14.

I don't really know much about Michigan though. Just seeing a trend.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:55 pm**

apropos wrote:
thexfactor wrote:
chimp wrote:Mishitgan

hey i'm the first one to come up with michSHITgan

see my old posts...

I think the location of the university of Michshitgan has finally caught up to the school. Located right in the middle of the rust belt close to one of the most desolate cities in the US.
Agreed. Some of the reasons for Michigan remaining a top law school despite having a single major market have historically probably been true. However, as the legal economy increasingly moves to larger firms in larger cities, and as the economy is bad, and the legal economy is terrible, a school like Michigan in the middle of hell without a strong main market is going to suffer more than similar schools.

Plus, there is the rustbelt problem. Everything in the rustbelt is deteriorating. A law school's prestige will carry it longer than the area's economy, but slowly and steadily this will start to wear. They ascended to high prestige when the area was an economic boom region.

Michigan's reputation is incredibly strong among the elderly, but not as strong among the younger people. This gets averaged out now. The elderly will die first.

Plus, in terms of social change, our generation is more urban than past generations. I think Michigan will have an increasingly difficult time attracting top students when they compete against elite, but not t14 schools like UT-Austin, in a large city that is only growing, and UCLA, which is a desirable place to live. The population center is moving Southwest.

In the not-too-distant future, I would guess that UT-Austin and UCLA will replace Georgetown and Michigan in the T14.

I don't really know much about Michigan ~~though. Just seeing a trend.~~

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:00 pm**

apropos wrote:
thexfactor wrote:
chimp wrote:Mishitgan

hey i'm the first one to come up with michSHITgan

see my old posts...

I think the location of the university of Michshitgan has finally caught up to the school. Located right in the middle of the rust belt close to one of the most desolate cities in the US.
In the not-too-distant future, I would guess that UT-Austin and UCLA will replace Georgetown and Michigan in the T14.

I don't really know much about Michigan though. Just seeing a trend.

lolwut

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:01 pm**

apropos wrote:Agreed. Some of the reasons for Michigan remaining a top law school despite having a single major market have historically probably been true. However, as the legal economy increasingly moves to larger firms in larger cities, and as the economy is bad, and the legal economy is terrible, a school like Michigan in the middle of hell without a strong main market is going to suffer more than similar schools.

Plus, there is the rustbelt problem. Everything in the rustbelt is deteriorating. A law school's prestige will carry it longer than the area's economy, but slowly and steadily this will start to wear. They ascended to high prestige when the area was an economic boom region.

Michigan's reputation is incredibly strong among the elderly, but not as strong among the younger people. This gets averaged out now. The elderly will die first.

Plus, in terms of social change, our generation is more urban than past generations. I think Michigan will have an increasingly difficult time attracting top students when they compete against elite, but not t14 schools like UT-Austin, in a large city that is only growing, and UCLA, which is a desirable place to live. The population center is moving Southwest.

In the not-too-distant future, I would guess that UT-Austin and UCLA will replace Georgetown and Michigan in the T14.

I don't really know much about Michigan though. Just seeing a trend.

lolwut

ETA: Damn, scooped.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:06 pm**

InGoodFaith wrote:
apropos wrote:Agreed. Some of the reasons for Michigan remaining a top law school despite having a single major market have historically probably been true. However, as the legal economy increasingly moves to larger firms in larger cities, and as the economy is bad, and the legal economy is terrible, a school like Michigan in the middle of hell without a strong main market is going to suffer more than similar schools.

Plus, there is the rustbelt problem. Everything in the rustbelt is deteriorating. A law school's prestige will carry it longer than the area's economy, but slowly and steadily this will start to wear. They ascended to high prestige when the area was an economic boom region.

Michigan's reputation is incredibly strong among the elderly, but not as strong among the younger people. This gets averaged out now. The elderly will die first.

Plus, in terms of social change, our generation is more urban than past generations. I think Michigan will have an increasingly difficult time attracting top students when they compete against elite, but not t14 schools like UT-Austin, in a large city that is only growing, and UCLA, which is a desirable place to live. The population center is moving Southwest.

In the not-too-distant future, I would guess that UT-Austin and UCLA will replace Georgetown and Michigan in the T14.

I don't really know much about Michigan though. Just seeing a trend.

lolwut

ETA: Damn, scooped.

aha! Victory!

But seriously, Michigan has never been outside the Top-10. Predicting that they fall out of the top 14 is crazy. In the last 3 years, their ranking has gone UP.

Don't confuse lay prestige with legal prestige. Rankings are based on reputation in the legal community. They are static at the very top. Michigan will stay in the top 10.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:11 pm**

It's ok Michigan. Other states don't have jobs either.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:13 pm**

TMC116 wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
apropos wrote:Agreed. Some of the reasons for Michigan remaining a top law school despite having a single major market have historically probably been true. However, as the legal economy increasingly moves to larger firms in larger cities, and as the economy is bad, and the legal economy is terrible, a school like Michigan in the middle of hell without a strong main market is going to suffer more than similar schools.

Plus, there is the rustbelt problem. Everything in the rustbelt is deteriorating. A law school's prestige will carry it longer than the area's economy, but slowly and steadily this will start to wear. They ascended to high prestige when the area was an economic boom region.

Michigan's reputation is incredibly strong among the elderly, but not as strong among the younger people. This gets averaged out now. The elderly will die first.

Plus, in terms of social change, our generation is more urban than past generations. I think Michigan will have an increasingly difficult time attracting top students when they compete against elite, but not t14 schools like UT-Austin, in a large city that is only growing, and UCLA, which is a desirable place to live. The population center is moving Southwest.

In the not-too-distant future, I would guess that UT-Austin and UCLA will replace Georgetown and Michigan in the T14.

I don't really know much about Michigan though. Just seeing a trend.

lolwut

ETA: Damn, scooped.
aha! Victory!

But seriously, Michigan has never been outside the Top-10. Predicting that they fall out of the top 14 is crazy. In the last 3 years, their ranking has gone UP.

Don't confuse lay prestige with legal prestige. Rankings are based on reputation in the legal community. They are static at the very top. Michigan will stay in the top 10.

You're right. Was hoping for a better response, because I these "static" arguments are silly, but Michigan isn't in trouble.

I stand by the Georgetown part fully though.

Edit: On topic: Numbers vary. Some of the excuses are probably overstated, but Michigan is not in trouble. Michigan is strong enough that past mistakes like bad advice aren't going to continue. Don't worry about Michigan. But why anyone would want to spend 3 years in Ann Arbor is beyond me.

Posted: **Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:14 pm**

Don't bash Michigan. The trees are the right height there.

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