Top Law Schools

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Neither of these schools give you better than a 5% shot at big firm employment. You do realize this, right? If not, check out the NLJ 250 data over the past few years.

Where are you from? If you're not from Kentucky or Indiana, these are both terrible decisions for you.

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You have a 3.2, that is bad but not horrendous. What is actually horrendous is your LSAT. I don't mean that to be harsh but to be honest. Your GPA is not precluding you from a great school, your LSAT is.

If you really want to have the option of going to a large firm you should put that "120%" effort into retaking the LSAT rather than gambling that you will do well 1L.

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tolson1 wrote:I know I'll have to be grinding it out bad but I will be giving it 120% next year for big law. I do have a few good connections in Ohio with guys working at national firms.

So will most of your classmates. It isn't a matter of "grinding it out" or working hard. All of your classmates will be doing the same. You will have to overcome incredible odds to get a big firm job from IU-I or UK. The Indianapolis, Louisville, and Lexington markets are super small, and KY and IU-I are very regional schools.

Even with "good connections," you'll still probably need top 5-10% grades to even get a real shot. And a good connection doesn't mean your buddy who is a third year associate or something. Hell, even if your dad was a partner at a big law firm, you'd still probably need good grades. A mediocre student at IU-I or UK is almost certainly not getting looked at by Ice Miller or Dinsmore or Frost Brown or the like. Especially one without ties.

You can find success at a school like these, but the odds of a bigfirm are incredibly stacked against you. It will take a lot more than just hard work.

tolson1 wrote:Appreciate the advice, but I will not be taking another year off to retake the LSAT.

This is totally irrational and downright silly, but whatever. Your money, your life. I would say go to IU-I and come to terms with the fact that you will almost certainly never be a big firm attorney. Not that this is the end of the world or your can't be a successful attorney (I know people there who are doing fine), but better to come to grips with reality now than be heartbroken at OCI.

romothesavior wrote:

tolson1 wrote:Appreciate the advice, but I will not be taking another year off to retake the LSAT.

This is totally irrational and downright silly, but whatever. Your money, your life. I would say go to IU-I and come to terms with the fact that you will almost certainly never be a big firm attorney. Not that this is the end of the world or your can't be a successful attorney (I know people there who are doing fine), but better to come to grips with reality now than be heartbroken at OCI.

+1. I've never understood this sentiment. Law school isn't going anywhere. Taking a year off to study for the LSAT means more money in your pocket, more WE, and a better chance of going somewhere that will get you a desirable job.

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U Indy places decently well in Indy law firms...decently well being top 10% you have a shot at a 80k+ a year job I would say. If you don't manage to get one of those jobs, I would say you're in trouble as it relates to finding a biglaw job. Nevertheless, I would still imagine this is better than what UK does, plus, who the hell wants to live in Kentucky (and yes, Indy is that much better).

Oh and get rid of the stipulation. That blows.

jrthor10 wrote:U Indy places decently well in Indy law firms...decently well being top 10% you have a shot at a 80k+ a year job I would say.

Correct me if I am wrong, but neither school is listed in the 2011 or 2012 "Go To Law Schools" lists (I just looked to double check). This means that in 2010, both schools placed less than 10.57% of graduates into NLJ 250 jobs, and in 2011 they placed less than 6.49%.

Indianapolis has maybe 30-40 NLJ 250 biglaw spots total (this may be generous). Even if they placed 15-20 people into Indianapolis biglaw (which is also very generous), they graduate over 300 people. That leaves maybe a 5% chance at Indy biglaw, and again that is a very generous estimate.

OP, this may be why people are pessimistic. I'm all for healthy optimism, but I'm also for doses of reality. The objective facts on this make it hard to be optimistic about IU-Indy for biglaw.

IU-I is such a joke they don't even report their employment information properly.

Check it out at LST:
--LinkRemoved--

But keep on going with the "see no evil, hear no evil" routine. Nobody in their right mind goes to either school.

tolson1 wrote:I don't have the luxury of being in a situation to retake the LSAT.

Why not? Why can't you get a job and study for the LSAT in your spare time?

If you retake the LSAT you can get into a school that makes working at a big firm a real possibility rather than being nigh impossible like it is at IU-Indy and Kentucky.

bk187 wrote:

tolson1 wrote:I don't have the luxury of being in a situation to retake the LSAT.

Why not? Why can't you get a job and study for the LSAT in your spare time?

I didn't have that luxury either. Sure you can get a job that pays $14/hr if you're lucky, but those of us with significant undergrad student loan debt could never start affording those payments if we just took a year off to study for the LSAT. I know, I know- it's dumb to accrue more debt because you can't pay the debt you already have, but the job market is BAD for those of us with useless undergrad degrees.

That said, I am an IU-Indy student and the 3.0 stip is bad news all around. I'll be keeping mine, but soooo many people I know will not be. I know looking at it it's like "Shit, only a 3.0?! I can do that" but the curve is a real son of a bitch. They don't negotiate the stips away here either, as far as I know.

romothesavior wrote:

jrthor10 wrote:U Indy places decently well in Indy law firms...decently well being top 10% you have a shot at a 80k+ a year job I would say.

Correct me if I am wrong, but neither school is listed in the 2011 or 2012 "Go To Law Schools" lists (I just looked to double check). This means that in 2010, both schools placed less than 10.57% of graduates into NLJ 250 jobs, and in 2011 they placed less than 6.49%.

Indianapolis has maybe 30-40 NLJ 250 biglaw spots total (this may be generous). Even if they placed 15-20 people into Indianapolis biglaw (which is also very generous), they graduate over 300 people. That leaves maybe a 5% chance at Indy biglaw, and again that is a very generous estimate.

OP, this may be why people are pessimistic. I'm all for healthy optimism, but I'm also for doses of reality. The objective facts on this make it hard to be optimistic about IU-Indy for biglaw.

Hey buddy, let's read before writing. I said she could get a job at Indy law firms. Not NLJ250 firms. There are only 3-4 firms in Indy that make that list. Those start at 100K. There are others, however, that are not NLJ, but still pay well (75+). That is why I said Indy firms, and not NLJ. Soooo, doing some math 5% (approx) getting jobs at the NLJ firms, that leaves 5% for the other firms to get to a whopping 10%. I am not saying the job prospects are overall good, merely that if you are top 10%, you have a better than 50% shot at getting a good job.

jrthor10 wrote:merely that if you are top 10%, you have a better than 50% shot at getting a good job.

Brilliant. That is worth hundred of thousands of dollars worth of debt for those chances. LMAO, A 5-6 percent shot at a non-NLJ NALP job! Yea!

Where exactly does the rest of the 90 percent of the class go, jrthor? Do those in the top 50% have a decent chance at positions at starbucks? Top 80 percent have a better than 50 percent shot at getting a good panhandling corner?

jrthor, I am very familiar with the Indianapolis market, thanks. You are being incredibly generous with your estimates on IU-I placement. I believe there are 5 NLJ offices in Indy with decent-sized offices (Ice, Barnes, Baker, Taft, Frost Brown). I just glanced at some NALP forms, and those 5 firms combined probably take 25-30 fresh grads total (30-40 in my previous post was high). The overwhelming majority of entry-level jobs paying 80k+ in Indianapolis will be at those 5 firms. I know of a few solid Indianapolis firms that pay high-five figures to start, but there aren't that many firms in this range and they have very small summer classes (less than 5, usually 1-2). There are probably no more than 70 entry-level jobs available to fresh grads in Indianapolis paying 80k+. You think 30-35 of those (which equals about 10% of the graduating class) are going to IU-Indy grads? Not even close. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me where the jobs are that I'm not accounting for.

In any case, we're quibbling over a few percent, which is silly. If it's 1%, 5%, 10%, the bottom line is that the number is small. At the end of the day, the IU-Indy opportunities for big firm legal work are not good. If OP wants to go there, that's fine. But he's looking to spend 90k or so on a law degree that gives him a 5% or so chance at getting him his goals. Those aren't odds I'd take at the casino, and I wouldn't take them for law school either.

Either way OP, good luck. I wish you would reconsider the decision not to retake because retaking and improving is easier than cracking the top 5-10% (which is what you will need at IU-Indy). If not though, you better work your ass off and hustle hard because unemployment awaits a sizeable chunk of students at both of these schools.

tolson1 wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

tolson1 wrote:Appreciate the advice, but I will not be taking another year off to retake the LSAT.

This is totally irrational and downright silly, but whatever. Your money, your life. I would say go to IU-I and come to terms with the fact that you will almost certainly never be a big firm attorney. Not that this is the end of the world or your can't be a successful attorney (I know people there who are doing fine), but better to come to grips with reality now than be heartbroken at OCI.

OK. I don't have the luxury of being in a situation to retake the LSAT, though I understand that it is "totally irrational and downright silly". I certainly won't "come to terms with the fact that I will almost certainly never be a big firm attorney", but it is duly noted. Why is everyone so pessimistic? I am not looking for opinions unrelated to my initial question. I am merely curious as to whether or not one would choose to attend the University of Kentucky at $17,000 or Indianapolis at $11,000. I have an interest in big law, and I understand completely that such an interest may be difficult to obtain.

Thanks.

Why so stubborn? Why not listen to some reason?

These schools are simply terrible for your goals.

JamesChapman23 wrote:

jrthor10 wrote:merely that if you are top 10%, you have a better than 50% shot at getting a good job.

Brilliant. That is worth hundred of thousands of dollars worth of debt for those chances. LMAO, A 5-6 percent shot at a non-NLJ NALP job! Yea!

Where exactly does the rest of the 90 percent of the class go, jrthor? Do those in the top 50% have a decent chance at positions at starbucks? Top 80 percent have a better than 50 percent shot at getting a good panhandling corner?

I didn't know 33K of tuition debt + living expenses in Indy amounted to, "hundred of thousands of dollars" [sic] in debt. Indy must have gotten considerably more expensive since I grew up there a few years ago.

You keep extrapolating from the limited point I was trying to make. I never said it was a good school to go to, or that there were good job prospects. Merely that it gave OP a "shot" at a well-paying law job and that, in my opinion, the likelihood of this was better at U Indy than at Kentucky

Michaela wrote:I didn't have that luxury either. Sure you can get a job that pays $14/hr if you're lucky, but those of us with significant undergrad student loan debt could never start affording those payments if we just took a year off to study for the LSAT. I know, I know- it's dumb to accrue more debt because you can't pay the debt you already have, but the job market is BAD for those of us with useless undergrad degrees.

I would understand this if the option was a top school with a good shot at a 6 figure job (that would make paying back that kind of debt more feasible), but outside of that it still doesn't make sense. Even if it is a full ride+stipend at a T50 if you have significant undergrad debt you're still going to have even more debt after graduation (even moreso if you are actually taking out more loans for school). You'll come out the other side of law school with a job that likely pays in the 30-60k range. Useless undergrad degrees don't mean you can't get a job that pays 20-30k and work your way up. It's tough, but it seems like a better idea than going to a mediocre or worse law school.

Though I guess if you have tons of undergrad debt and can only get a 20-30k job you're basically in debt peonage already. Maybe going to law school and then living like a peon for 25 years while doing IBR is an option.

romothesavior wrote:jrthor, I am very familiar with the Indianapolis market, thanks. You are being incredibly generous with your estimates on IU-I placement. I believe there are 5 NLJ offices in Indy with decent-sized offices (Ice, Barnes, Baker, Taft, Frost Brown). I just glanced at some NALP forms, and those 5 firms combined probably take 25-30 fresh grads total (30-40 in my previous post was high). The overwhelming majority of entry-level jobs paying 80k+ in Indianapolis will be at those 5 firms. I know of a few solid Indianapolis firms that pay high-five figures to start, but there aren't that many firms in this range and they have very small summer classes (less than 5, usually 1-2). There are probably no more than 70 entry-level jobs available to fresh grads in Indianapolis paying 80k+. You think 30-35 of those (which equals about 10% of the graduating class) are going to IU-Indy grads? Not even close. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me where the jobs are that I'm not accounting for.

In any case, we're quibbling over a few percent, which is silly. If it's 1%, 5%, 10%, the bottom line is that the number is small. At the end of the day, the IU-Indy opportunities for big firm legal work are not good. If OP wants to go there, that's fine. But he's looking to spend 90k or so on a law degree that gives him a 5% or so chance at getting him his goals. Those aren't odds I'd take at the casino, and I wouldn't take them for law school either.

Either way OP, good luck. I wish you would reconsider the decision not to retake because retaking and improving is easier than cracking the top 5-10% (which is what you will need at IU-Indy). If not though, you better work your ass off and hustle hard because unemployment awaits a sizeable chunk of students at both of these schools.

I agree with this.

Guys, to clarify. The scholarship I have at Indianapolis is 33,000, I would be paying only 11,000 a year. The title is the scholarship amount, not the amount that I will be paying.... I should've listed it the other way around.

tolson1 wrote:Guys, to clarify. The scholarship I have at Indianapolis is 33,000, I would be paying only 11,000 a year. The title is the scholarship amount, not the amount that I will be paying.... I should've listed it the other way around.

Well when you are on unemployment- it doesn't matter whether you are 50k in debt or 150k in debt. You default either way and with the same consequences.

JamesChapman23 wrote:

tolson1 wrote:Guys, to clarify. The scholarship I have at Indianapolis is 33,000, I would be paying only 11,000 a year. The title is the scholarship amount, not the amount that I will be paying.... I should've listed it the other way around.

Well when you are unemployment- it doesn't matter whether you are 50k in debt or 150k in debt. You default either way and with the same consequences.

If you are going to be kind of a douche, can you be one with correct grammar please?

Not disagreeing with your point, simply your asshole way of making it.