Seton Hall Full$ v. T30 $ v. probably sticker T14 Forum

[johansantana21]

I'm confident I will be pulled off the waitlist of at least one

I stopped reading here.

[thexfactor]

If the Op has ties to NJ, vandy top 1/3 will be likely considerable to seton hall top 10%. Also, vandy gives you a shot at other markets too. You woudn;'t have to appologize for seton hall, but you wouldnt get a job either in anything paying over 50k.

Its more like this-
UVA/Duke>Vandy>>Emory>Wake/WM/WL

Emory and Wake are a lot closer than what you're giving credit for. Not because Wake is that good, but because Emory has really dropped.


Anyways, OP. If you have no UG debt and won't be taking up any debt (that means COL) for Seton Hall, I think that would be a fine choice for you.

Seton Hall woudln't cause you to take up more debt, but it certainly wouldn't help your employment opportunities once you graduate. There is a high chance 80-90% chance you will be making under 50k a year or unemployed coming out of Seton Hall.

I really think Vandy and Fordham are pretty equal in NYC. My definition of equal is how deep in a certain school firms are willing to go. IE even though WUSTL and Fordham are both T30 schools. They are not peer in NYC. Kids in the top 25% get biglaw in NYC from fordham while only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw in nyc.

[JCFindley]

I saw a really pretty girl wearing a shirt that said "Harvard, the Vanderbilt of the north." She was hot so there must be something to it.......

(Argue with that "logic.")

Hopefully I will get in at Rutgers or even the Hail Marry Fordham shot as I am old and my wife is from up there and keeping her happy and near home makes my life SO much better.......

Of course, I hadn't thought of applying at Maryland and how that would really have helped land those NJ jobs....;o)

[dingbat]

Fordham's placement in NY is certainly better than BU/BC (they place mostly in Boston) and GW (same for DC). UCLA/USC/UT have minimal presence in NY and its probably fair to place them behind Vandy, but I'd find it hard to believe Vandy is on par with Fordham.
The school has a solid reputation and vast, tight-knit alumni network in NY.
(statistics bear this out: while Vandy has better biglaw placement overall, its placement in NY is significantly smaller. Admittedly, part of it is due to self-selection )

Oh I wasn't trying to say that BU/BC/GW were better than Fordham, but that they were significantly better than other non-Fordham T30's.

Fair enough, especially as they're a step up from WUSTL or Minnesota.
I should amend to say Fordham -> BU/BC/GW (maybe Vandy) -> most (but not all) of the rest of the T30 -> Cardozo -> everywhere else -> Touro (if it sounds like Toilet...)

[dingbat]

If the Op has ties to NJ, vandy top 1/3 will be likely considerable to seton hall top 10%. Also, vandy gives you a shot at other markets too. You woudn;'t have to appologize for seton hall, but you wouldnt get a job either in anything paying over 50k.

Its more like this-
UVA/Duke>Vandy>>Emory>Wake/WM/WL

Emory and Wake are a lot closer than what you're giving credit for. Not because Wake is that good, but because Emory has really dropped.


Anyways, OP. If you have no UG debt and won't be taking up any debt (that means COL) for Seton Hall, I think that would be a fine choice for you.

Seton Hall woudln't cause you to take up more debt, but it certainly wouldn't help your employment opportunities once you graduate. There is a high chance 80-90% chance you will be making under 50k a year or unemployed coming out of Seton Hall.

I really think Vandy and Fordham are pretty equal in NYC. My definition of equal is how deep in a certain school firms are willing to go. IE even though WUSTL and Fordham are both T30 schools. They are not peer in NYC. Kids in the top 25% get biglaw in NYC from fordham while only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw in nyc.

More like only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw anywhere.
Vandy has slightly better biglaw placement than Fordham overall, but that's predominantly in the south. They have less than 10% placement in NY.
As it is impossible to tell how much is self selection, let's call it a draw (you're probably right)

[Tiago Splitter]

More like only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw anywhere.

Dunno about that.

[johansantana21]

More like only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw anywhere.

Dunno about that.

Sounds pretty accurate. WUSTTTL, even if you account for market paying non nlj250, is a shitwreck toilet ITE for biglaw.

[bk1]

More like only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw anywhere.

Dunno about that.

Sounds pretty accurate. WUSTTTL, even if you account for market paying non nlj250, is a shitwreck toilet ITE for biglaw.

While it is likely that the vast majority of WUSTL's biglaw kids are in the top 15%, saying "only the top 15%" is needlessly hyperbolic.

[Tiago Splitter]

More like only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw anywhere.

Dunno about that.

Sounds pretty accurate. WUSTTTL, even if you account for market paying non nlj250, is a shitwreck toilet ITE for biglaw.

But even in the worst year ever, 2011, they came in at 13.5, and Art. III clerkships would put them over 15. I mean maybe things stay that bad, but as recently as 2009 they came in at 27.5 in NLJ 250 placement.

[johansantana21]

More like only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw anywhere.

Dunno about that.

Sounds pretty accurate. WUSTTTL, even if you account for market paying non nlj250, is a shitwreck toilet ITE for biglaw.

But even in the worst year ever, 2011, they came in at 13.5, and Art. III clerkships would put them over 15. I mean maybe things stay that bad, but as recently as 2009 they came in at 27.5 in NLJ 250 placement.

Class of 2009 didn't do 2L OCI ITE.

[dingbat]

More like only the top 15% at WUSTL are able to get biglaw anywhere.

Dunno about that.

NLJ250 placement:
2011: 13.33%
2010: 18.96%
2009: 27.05%

I will admit to being wrong. Even if the size of the legal market has permanently shrunk, as many believe, 2011 is probably an anomaly for biglaw hiring and WUSTL numbers will rebound.

Before the economy turned to shit, it looks like WUSTL was in the high 20's consistently for as far back as I cared to look (early-2000s). Even assuming a shrunken law market, they should rebound to at least the low 20s

[Tiago Splitter]

Class of 2009 didn't do 2L OCI ITE.

Do you think over the next few years Cornell will do much worse than the 41.5% they placed in the NLJ250 in 2009?

[johansantana21]

Class of 2009 didn't do 2L OCI ITE.

Do you think over the next few years Cornell will do much worse than the 41.5% they placed in the NLJ250 in 2009?

No but Cornell has a graduating class size of ~200 which means that if even 5 people self select out of biglaw or etc, the percentages get screwed up wildly.

Also Cornell feeds primarily into NYC, the one market that has rebounded strongly. GL trying to find a job in NYC not being in the top 15% in WUSTTTL.

[bobbyh1919]

Seriously, over here Rutgers is better than several of the T14

Can anyone back this up or elaborate on this? I just don't see this being the case. It's probably rare for T-14 kids to come back to NJ, but I'm sure firms would love to have them.

[Onthebrink]

The thing is, as a couple people have already pointed out, Rutgers and Seton Hall dominate NJ firms. So you are interviewing with alums of RU and SHU. The judges on the NJ Supreme Court(and superior court, etc.) seem to love RU and SHU students. I don't know if it is because t-14 kids choose not to go home, but the RU and SHU kids certainly dominate NJ market.

[chemE_envlaw]

Due to self selection, I think vandy is atleast equal to Fordham in NYC.

No, it isn't
NY big law is
HY -> CCN -> most of the T14* -> Fordham -> the rest of the T20 -> Cardozo (and possibly a few east coast T30 schools) -> everything else (slight plus for Rutgers)

*i don't know how Stanford is considered, due to so few going to NY
Some of the lower T14 (eg Berkeley) have such a small east coast presence that its NY reputation isn't comparable.

This isn't really accurate unless you're using T20 loosely. I'm not sure whether Fordham or Vandy is better in NYC, but I'd put Vandy ahead of its T18 peers (UCLA/UT/USC) in NYC. As noted I'd put the east coast T30's (BU/BC/GW) ahead of the rest, heck I'd probably put them ahead of Fordham. Not sure how I'd put UCLA/UT/USC vs BU/BC/GW.

Fordham's placement in NY is certainly better than BU/BC (they place mostly in Boston) and GW (same for DC). UCLA/USC/UT have minimal presence in NY and its probably fair to place them behind Vandy, but I'd find it hard to believe Vandy is on par with Fordham.
The school has a solid reputation and vast, tight-knit alumni network in NY.
(statistics bear this out: while Vandy has better biglaw placement overall, its placement in NY is significantly smaller. Admittedly, part of it is due to self-selection )

I have questions regarding Fordham vs. T20. Specifically, the University of Minnesota. I've been offered a 3/4 scholarship at the U of MN. I applied to NYU in December and am currently stuck in the "Valley of Sad" awaiting my waitlisting. I recently applied to Fordham after visiting at NYU and deciding that I really do want to be in NY, whether I can get into NYU or not. How much of a scholarship would it take for it not to be an insane decision to choose Fordham (if they end up accepting me...I've been seeing a lot of waitlists)?

I'm not really set on Big Law...unless I end up terrified of the size of my debt.

[bk1]

I have questions regarding Fordham vs. T20. Specifically, the University of Minnesota. I've been offered a 3/4 scholarship at the U of MN. I applied to NYU in December and am currently stuck in the "Valley of Sad" awaiting my waitlisting. I recently applied to Fordham after visiting at NYU and deciding that I really do want to be in NY, whether I can get into NYU or not. How much of a scholarship would it take for it not to be an insane decision to choose Fordham (if they end up accepting me...I've been seeing a lot of waitlists)?

I'm not really set on Big Law...unless I end up terrified of the size of my debt.

I would pay max about 100k for Fordham (I think 120k would be stretching it). You don't want biglaw... what do you want to do?

[dingbat]

I would pay max about 100k for Fordham (I think 120k would be stretching it). You don't want biglaw... what do you want to do?

You'll never get that big a scholarship from Fordham, their official max is $20k (unofficially, they have been known to go up to $35k, but in that case you've probably gotten into NYU; They also have 2 full scholarships, but those aren't tied to LSAT/GPA)

I have questions regarding Fordham vs. T20. Specifically, the University of Minnesota. I've been offered a 3/4 scholarship at the U of MN. I applied to NYU in December and am currently stuck in the "Valley of Sad" awaiting my waitlisting. I recently applied to Fordham after visiting at NYU and deciding that I really do want to be in NY, whether I can get into NYU or not. How much of a scholarship would it take for it not to be an insane decision to choose Fordham (if they end up accepting me...I've been seeing a lot of waitlists)?

I'm not really set on Big Law...unless I end up terrified of the size of my debt.

If you're not set on biglaw, do not spend a lot of money on law school, period.
Minnesota is a good school and that's a good offer. Unless you really want NY, you should take it.
Even if you really want NY, if Biglaw isn't in your plans, you should really think twice about it.
While I'm more than happy to boost Fordham (it's a good school with excellent placement in NY) it's an expensive school that, frankly, often isn't the best choice.

[mithriliel]

I'm confident I will be pulled off the waitlist of at least one

I stopped reading here.

To clarify, I have an extremely strong connection at one of the law schools I haven't used yet that has told me he will make a call and have me pulled off the waitlist if I decide I 100% want that school regardless of a scholarship offer and probably paying ticket. For obvious reasons I'm not mentioning anymore or going into further detail, but that's why I'm including it in my debate.

What are the primary merits of GW and Fordham (in other words, should I be trying to push for more money through my Vandy offer?) vs. Vandy vs. a T14 vs. Seton Hall? Is a school like Fordham actually going to give me any real benefit with no money?

My mom worked for the NJ Supreme court and told me of a LOT of Seton Hall students that go through there. I know in NJ it's a very strong school and a lot of firms and clerks take from there.

[thexfactor]

I'm confident I will be pulled off the waitlist of at least one

I stopped reading here.

To clarify, I have an extremely strong connection at one of the law schools I haven't used yet that has told me he will make a call and have me pulled off the waitlist if I decide I 100% want that school regardless of a scholarship offer and probably paying ticket. For obvious reasons I'm not mentioning anymore or going into further detail, but that's why I'm including it in my debate.

What are the primary merits of GW and Fordham (in other words, should I be trying to push for more money through my Vandy offer?) vs. Vandy vs. a T14 vs. Seton Hall? Is a school like Fordham actually going to give me any real benefit with no money?

My mom worked for the NJ Supreme court and told me of a LOT of Seton Hall students that go through there. I know in NJ it's a very strong school and a lot of firms and clerks take from there.

I think that is due to self selection. According to NLJ250 placement rate, seton hall places below 6.5%. Where do the remaining people in the top 10 maybe 15% go? likely to the supreme court of NJ. Kids other than maybe the bottom of the barrel (ie bottom 25%) T14s likely don't go for those jobs because they can get fed clerkships biglaw/midlaw/ big gov.
I networked with someone in an appellate state court (non delaware/NY/CA) and they told me that they rarely even get applications from the local t14 school let alone other t14s.

[dingbat]

I'm confident I will be pulled off the waitlist of at least one

I stopped reading here.

To clarify, I have an extremely strong connection at one of the law schools I haven't used yet that has told me he will make a call and have me pulled off the waitlist if I decide I 100% want that school regardless of a scholarship offer and probably paying ticket. For obvious reasons I'm not mentioning anymore or going into further detail, but that's why I'm including it in my debate.

What are the primary merits of GW and Fordham (in other words, should I be trying to push for more money through my Vandy offer?) vs. Vandy vs. a T14 vs. Seton Hall? Is a school like Fordham actually going to give me any real benefit with no money?

My mom worked for the NJ Supreme court and told me of a LOT of Seton Hall students that go through there. I know in NJ it's a very strong school and a lot of firms and clerks take from there.

If you are sure you want NJ, take the money (seton hall) and graduate with a manageable debt
If you want New York, take Fordham, unless you get a better offer from Vandy. They're worth the risk of the additional expense

Edit: this assumes you don't get anywhere with the T14. If you want NY, go to those, for NJ you'd have to consider your long term goals re cost/benefit

[dingbat]

I think that is due to self selection. According to NLJ250 placement rate, seton hall places below 6.5%. Where do the remaining people in the top 10 maybe 15% go? likely to the supreme court of NJ. Kids other than maybe the bottom of the barrel (ie bottom 25%) T14s likely don't go for those jobs because they can get fed clerkships biglaw/midlaw/ big gov.
I networked with someone in an appellate state court (non delaware/NY/CA) and they told me that they rarely even get applications from the local t14 school let alone other t14s.

jersey has a lot of mid size firms, that wouldn't really make it to the NLJ250.
A lot of Seton Hall and Rutgers grads go there.
I'm unable to look it up, but I think that a larger number go into corporate, relative to other schools. There's a proportionately bigger market here.

[Mike12188]

Don't you understand that unless you go to a T-14ish school, the ONLY way you get jobs is: on-campus interviews, alumni networking, and ties. Maryland offers none of these things if you want to go back to New Jersey. Hell at least if we were talking about places non T-14 places like WashU, UNC and W&M, at least they have reputations as excellent academic institutions. Maybe a there is a really small chance a firm would say, "wow UNC out of state - kid must be smart"...Maryland doesn't even offer that kind of name/brand recognition. It's a thoroughly average state school overall. It would be just as stupid a decision if Maryland was ranked 35th and Rutgers 95th. Public, state-funded law schools (with the exception of the T-14) are meant to overwhelmingly serve their state. Makes sense, no? The Rutgers-Camden>Rutgers-Newark point is literally so indefensible so I'm not even justifying it anymore.

I digress...back to the actual question at hand.

Yea you're an idiot. It's clear your bias because you're going to RU-Newark. Good luck lol

May I suggest that people who are not in or from NJ refrain from talking about employment prospects in NJ?

Seriously, over here Rutgers is better than several of the T14.
Rankings are meaningless when a state school dominates the local market

And no, I do not go to Rutgers

Rutgers top 5-10% may do better than some medians at t14s in NJ but grades being equal...come on...lets be serious.

[stillwater]

Don't you understand that unless you go to a T-14ish school, the ONLY way you get jobs is: on-campus interviews, alumni networking, and ties. Maryland offers none of these things if you want to go back to New Jersey. Hell at least if we were talking about places non T-14 places like WashU, UNC and W&M, at least they have reputations as excellent academic institutions. Maybe a there is a really small chance a firm would say, "wow UNC out of state - kid must be smart"...Maryland doesn't even offer that kind of name/brand recognition. It's a thoroughly average state school overall. It would be just as stupid a decision if Maryland was ranked 35th and Rutgers 95th. Public, state-funded law schools (with the exception of the T-14) are meant to overwhelmingly serve their state. Makes sense, no? The Rutgers-Camden>Rutgers-Newark point is literally so indefensible so I'm not even justifying it anymore.

I digress...back to the actual question at hand.

Yea you're an idiot. It's clear your bias because you're going to RU-Newark. Good luck lol

Oh, Linsanity. Always there for laffs.

[Mike12188]

Going to MD to go back to NJ instead of going to RU is probably the dumbest thing I've seen on this board.