WUSTL w/ Full vs. UTexas w/ $9.5/yr vs. Penn @ Sticker Forum

[ACROOS170]

Just curious what the TLS faithful have to say about my predicament...

WashU offered full tuition
UTexas offered $9.5/yr
Penn @ sticker (at least for now)

I am moderately averse to debt, which makes WashU very appealing. Not very excited about WashU's career prospects, though.

I would prefer to practice in Dallas or Houston after graduation (though not a must), which makes UTexas attractive. However, I am not sure what to think about the bad publicity UT has received about its legal writing requirements.

However, the prestige of an Ivy League Law School and the career benefits of such an education make Penn an incredibly viable option as well. $150k in debt + $40k from undergrad scares me.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

[rad lulz]

In-state at UT?

[ACROOS170]

Yes. In state at UT, making it about $19.5k/year for tuition...

[rad lulz]

Yes. In state at UT, making it about $19.5k/year for tuition...

UT.

You want to work in TX, and you have no business taking out almost $250k in debt for Penn.

[bernaldiaz]

Yes. In state at UT, making it about $19.5k/year for tuition...

UT.

You want to work in TX, and you have no business taking out almost $250k in debt for Penn.

Yeah, UT is a no brainer I think.

[Tadatsune]

Yes. In state at UT, making it about $19.5k/year for tuition...

UT.

You want to work in TX, and you have no business taking out almost $250k in debt for Penn.

Yeah, UT is a no brainer I think.

I agree. UT.

[dproduct]

Just curious what the TLS faithful have to say about my predicament...

WashU offered full tuition
UTexas offered $9.5/yr
Penn @ sticker (at least for now)

I am moderately averse to debt, which makes WashU very appealing. Not very excited about WashU's career prospects, though.

I would like to practice in Dallas or Houston after graduation, which makes UTexas attractive. However, I am not sure what to think about the bad publicity UT has received about its legal writing requirements.

However, the prestige of an Ivy League Law School and the career benefits of such an education make Penn an incredibly viable option as well. $150k in debt + $40k from undergrad scares me.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

UT.

[sunynp]

UT - this isn't even close. There is no way that Penn is worth 150000 more than Texas when you plan to practice in Texas. Give up on the idea of an "ivy league" school, it isn't worth the cost and the debt you will be carrying around for years.

[Wholigan]

UT - this isn't even close. There is no way that Penn is worth 150000 more than Texas when you plan to practice in Texas. Give up on the idea of an "ivy league" school, it isn't worth the cost and the debt you will be carrying around for years.

I think it would be $90k more. He said UT would cost $19.5k/yr after the scholarship, while Penn at sticker is about $49k. But still, UT is the right choice if OP wants to work in Texas.

[emkay625]

I love UT and I think UT is a no brainer here, esp. since you want to be in Texas.


However, WUSTL at full shouldn't be overlooked. A free JD from a top-20 school is nothing to sneeze at, and I think several people on this board have spoken about the success of people at wustl getting back to Texas.

[ucbkenn]

I would probably say UT, but I agree with emkay. You should consider WUSTL. Maybe visit both schools and see which one you think you'll fit in at the best?

[bobbyh1919]

UT is pretty tough to beat here. Tell them about your other offers and see if they budge at all on their offer though.

[lawyerwannabe]

I can definitely make an argument for Penn. Just because he wants TX BigLaw and got into UT does not make this a slam dunk.

He is from the state so he already has ties. If he goes to UT, he will just be another TX kid trying to get TX BigLaw (if his grades are mediocre, and you should always plan on them being so, he will hardly be anything close to a special snowflake). However, if he attends a nationally recognized and Ivy League school such as Penn, since he is from TX, if he shows a desire to return home after graduation, firms may be drooling over him. Also, Penn would provide more total flexibility. It will open up the NYC market while TX will only give him the TX market. And if he strikes out, then he may be left without a job.

Just a thought.

[rad lulz]

/

[lawyerwannabe]

I can definitely make an argument for Penn. Just because he wants TX BigLaw and got into UT does not make this a slam dunk.

He is from the state so he already has ties. If he goes to UT, he will just be another TX kid trying to get TX BigLaw (if his grades are mediocre, and you should always plan on them being so, he will hardly be anything close to a special snowflake). However, if he attends a nationally recognized and Ivy League school such as Penn, since he is from TX, if he shows a desire to return home after graduation, firms may be drooling over him. Also, Penn would provide more total flexibility. It will open up the NYC market while TX will only give him the TX market. And if he strikes out, then he may be left without a job.

Just a thought.

He's paying sticker for it and already has $40k UG debt.

And? I never he should choose Penn. I said I was making a case for choosing it and that UT is not as sure of a slam dunk as this thread is making it out to be.

Sure, $40k UG debt may be another factor in favor of UT, but it does not change anything that I said above.

[rad lulz]

l

[dixon02]

Just curious what the TLS faithful have to say about my predicament...

WashU offered full tuition
UTexas offered $9.5/yr
Penn @ sticker (at least for now)

I am moderately averse to debt, which makes WashU very appealing. Not very excited about WashU's career prospects, though.

I would like to practice in Dallas or Houston after graduation, which makes UTexas attractive. However, I am not sure what to think about the bad publicity UT has received about its legal writing requirements.

However, the prestige of an Ivy League Law School and the career benefits of such an education make Penn an incredibly viable option as well. $150k in debt + $40k from undergrad scares me.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

If that's the case, then just think how much ~$220k in debt (what Penn will actually cost you) + $40k from undergrad will scare you. If you are content with/hoping to practice in Texas, UT is a no brainer.

[lawyerwannabe]

but it does not change anything that I said above.

Did I say it did?

Ha. No. But I felt that implication from your post.

Frankly, I would retake if I was OP. His LSAT is obviously good enough to land T13. Thus, with maybe a 1-3 pt increase, he may be looking at a nice scholly in the lower T13. Then, his debt problem would be slightly alleviated and he would have the best of both worlds being discussed. Currently, he is in a spot where I do not think there is a wrong or a right answer. Both have there major pros and cons.

[lawyerwannabe]

Just curious what the TLS faithful have to say about my predicament...

WashU offered full tuition
UTexas offered $9.5/yr
Penn @ sticker (at least for now)

I am moderately averse to debt, which makes WashU very appealing. Not very excited about WashU's career prospects, though.

I would like to practice in Dallas or Houston after graduation, which makes UTexas attractive. However, I am not sure what to think about the bad publicity UT has received about its legal writing requirements.

However, the prestige of an Ivy League Law School and the career benefits of such an education make Penn an incredibly viable option as well. $150k in debt + $40k from undergrad scares me.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

If that's the case, then just think how much ~$220k in debt (what Penn will actually cost you) + $40k from undergrad will scare you. If you are content with/hoping to practice in Texas, UT is a no brainer.

In the end, I do have to agree. Over $200k debt is horrifyingly scary.

[stratocophic]

Either WUSTL or Texas. WUSTL has a decent turnout of the biggest Texas firms at OCI (Locke Lord, V&E, a few others I can't remember) and others are willing to interview people with ties through mass mailing. I picked up an offer from one of the V100s (didn't accept tho) despite never having been to the state and I have several friends who will be with big Texas firms for the summer as well, it's definitely doable if your grades are decent.

[T00L]

This thread appeals to my interests (minus the Penn Acceptance). Let me know what you choose, I will be doing something similar.

[Army2Law]

It will open up the NYC market while TX will only give him the TX market.

Blatantly false. I know a good number of people, myself included, who had multiple non-Texas offers coming out of UT. Not just at the top of the class either.

I'm biased, but I think you should pick UT, OP.

[chiwachiwa]

Run, do not walk, to UT

[ACROOS170]

First, thank you all for your input!!! This feedback is incredibly helpful. I think it is great that TLS provides these forums...

Having said that, I am sorta surprised by the consensus. Obviously, UT is a great school and I am giving them consideration because of that. However, just running some quick calculations...

Wash U: $35,000 in living expenses + $40,000 Undergrad = $75,000 in debt = roughly $750 monthly payments for 10yr plan

UTexas: $35,000 in living expenses + $40,000 Undergrad + ~$60,000 Law School = $135,000 in debt = roughly $1,350 monthly payments for 10yr plan

Penn: $40,000 in living expenses + $40,000 Undergrad + ~$145,000 Law School = $225,000 in debt = roughly $2,250 monthly payments for 10yr plan

Conservatively estimated starting salaries over 10 years... (obviously not accounting for bonuses/raises/taxes)
Wash U: $125,000 / 12mos = ~$10,500 per month - $750 = $9,250 in monthly dough after loan payments
UTexas: $140,000 /12mos = ~$11,500 per month - $1,350 = $10,150 "
Penn: $155,000 / 12mos = ~$13,000 per month - $2,250 = $10,750 "

Obviously these are only rough estimates... Certainly, some Wash U grads land 160k paying jobs and same for UT... But I think it would be naive to assume that I would be one of them... Plus, I could end up being one of the few Penn grads who want BigLaw and don't get such a job, which would undermine my estimations, as well. Additionally, there are factors that one can't quantify (i.e. career prospects & flexibility beyond 10yrs, location livability, and other intangibles...)

If nothing else, I think this just shows that it isn't as simple as it may seem at first.

And in re: UTexas, it seems plausible that I could graduate with a $120,000 salary and $100,000+ in debt... That scares me the most of all....

Again, I'm not saying that I don't like UT. I think it is a great school... I'm just not convinced that it is as simple of a decision as some make it sound...

Especially to the UT advocates, is there a reason why I should discount the calculations I just mentioned? Other factors that I am not considering?

THANKS!!!!

[chiwachiwa]

You are not considering that your $125,000 salary figure coming out of WUSTL is wildly optimistic. The fact that it is ranked #19 means little when its placement power is compared to the other two schools you are weighing.
A general rule of thumb is that for LS to be a "good decision" ex post, your salary should be greater than or equal to your total cost of attendance. So what's wrong with a $120,000 salary and $100,000 debt from UT?