Top Law Schools

The 2011 NLJ 250 Employment Data has come out. I know there is a thread on this topic in the 'Legal Employment' forum, but since it is highly relevant to choosing a law school, I thought I'd start a thread on it here.

Here's the link to the data:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

Also, since the percentages fluctuate from year to year, I made a spreadsheet with the data for the last three year, along with a mean and rankings.



For people new to TLS: the numbers above are the percentages of each class that end up at a firm in the NLJ 250, which is a ranking of the 250 largest law firms in the US. The NLJ 250 is a crude proxy for 'Big Law.' It doesn't include people who get clerkships and then go to Big Law after that (over 10% of the class at some schools).

If you are gonna repost this info for purposes of helping people choose a school, make sure to mention the key point that the data is a snapshot of 2 years in the past. The class of 2011 (which is the most recent data) did OCI in 2009, which was the most brutal year on record due to the economic crash. So the most recent numbers are a snapshot from the worst time of the recession. Thus, it is not at all reflective of the recovery we have seen at a number of the top schools.

Yikes. Not pretty for uMich and texas.

edit: i didnt want to say anything before these numbers came out but it is nice to see cornell back closer to where it belongs; 38 rather than 58 percent. 2010s numbers were leading a ton of 0Ls astray imo.

double edit: also weird to see how much duke and northwestern both went up during the worst year ever.

kaiser wrote:If you are gonna repost this info for purposes of helping people choose a school, make sure to mention the key point that the data is a snapshot of 2 years in the past. The class of 2011 (which is the most recent data) did OCI in 2009, which was the most brutal year on record due to the economic crash. So the most recent numbers are a snapshot from the worst time of the recession. Thus, it is not at all reflective of the recovery we have seen at a number of the top schools.

Indeed. I think this is mostly just useful for making comparisions (and even then, it's flawed in various ways). Of course, we have no idea what OCI will be like in 2013.

kaiser wrote:If you are gonna repost this info for purposes of helping people choose a school, make sure to mention the key point that the data is a snapshot of 2 years in the past. The class of 2011 (which is the most recent data) did OCI in 2009, which was the most brutal year on record due to the economic crash. So the most recent numbers are a snapshot from the worst time of the recession. Thus, it is not at all reflective of the recovery we have seen at a number of the top schools.

When are the numbers actually reflective? It seems like anytime anyone posts something, here the most recent info at hand, which turns out to be fairly negative, the law school pom pom team comes out to assure everyone that these numbers are not what we are seeing now. This has been said consistently for years here now, ever since 2008, that whatever numbers are out are not reflective. The numbers don't lie.

Damn Michigan does not have a very positve trend.

kaiser wrote:If you are gonna repost this info for purposes of helping people choose a school, make sure to mention the key point that the data is a snapshot of 2 years in the past. The class of 2011 (which is the most recent data) did OCI in 2009, which was the most brutal year on record due to the economic crash. So the most recent numbers are a snapshot from the worst time of the recession. Thus, it is not at all reflective of the recovery we have seen at a number of the top schools.

Another point to make is that this data, though informative, does not encapsulate the situation in it's totality; the numbers are not necessarily reflective of the actuality of the situation. The low percentage of graduates from Yale, Harvard, etc...that make BL does not mean that a low percentage will get it, though it implies this.

In short, these percentages are low, not only because of the current crappy economic situation, but also because a lot of these graduates go on to pursue other things such as academia, clerkships, etc... and those who are not in it for BL.

HTH

MrAnon wrote:

kaiser wrote:If you are gonna repost this info for purposes of helping people choose a school, make sure to mention the key point that the data is a snapshot of 2 years in the past. The class of 2011 (which is the most recent data) did OCI in 2009, which was the most brutal year on record due to the economic crash. So the most recent numbers are a snapshot from the worst time of the recession. Thus, it is not at all reflective of the recovery we have seen at a number of the top schools.

When are the numbers actually reflective? It seems like anytime anyone posts something, here the most recent info at hand, which turns out to be fairly negative, the law school pom pom team comes out to assure everyone that these numbers are not what we are seeing now. This has been said consistently for years here now, ever since 2008, that whatever numbers are out are not reflective. The numbers don't lie.

Everyone knows that the class of 2011 (for whom this chart represents) did OCI in 2009, and that 2009 OCI was a bloodbath of the highest order. What specific part of that statement do you disagree with?

shoeshine wrote:Damn Michigan does not have a very positve trend.

The people who did OCI in 2009 at Michigan apparently got screwed by some very bad advice from their CSO that year - so the 2011 number might be a bit of an anomaly.

AntipodeanPhil wrote:

shoeshine wrote:Damn Michigan does not have a very positve trend.

The people who did OCI in 2009 at Michigan apparently got screwed by some very bad advice from their CSO that year - so the 2011 number might be a bit of an anomaly.

Both of the things you mentioned are anecdotal at best.

Why are you making excuses for them?

MrAnon wrote:

kaiser wrote:If you are gonna repost this info for purposes of helping people choose a school, make sure to mention the key point that the data is a snapshot of 2 years in the past. The class of 2011 (which is the most recent data) did OCI in 2009, which was the most brutal year on record due to the economic crash. So the most recent numbers are a snapshot from the worst time of the recession. Thus, it is not at all reflective of the recovery we have seen at a number of the top schools.

When are the numbers actually reflective? It seems like anytime anyone posts something, here the most recent info at hand, which turns out to be fairly negative, the law school pom pom team comes out to assure everyone that these numbers are not what we are seeing now. This has been said consistently for years here now, ever since 2008, that whatever numbers are out are not reflective. The numbers don't lie.

Beyond all the anecdotal evidence posted in the 'Legal Employment' thread, there are numbers supporting the claim that things have improved since the 2009 OCI. For example:

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata

Penn's a sleeper.

shoeshine wrote:

AntipodeanPhil wrote:

shoeshine wrote:Damn Michigan does not have a very positve trend.

The people who did OCI in 2009 at Michigan apparently got screwed by some very bad advice from their CSO that year - so the 2011 number might be a bit of an anomaly.

Both of the things you mentioned are anecdotal at best.

Why are you making excuses for them?

They're not anecdotal "at best," they're anecdotal.

Do we have % of OCI participation numbers, so we can get a feel for how many people really do tend to opt out at different schools?

wow... poor 2009 kids.

So it can't get worse than this right?

johansantana21 wrote:So it can't get worse than this right?

I'd imagine its gotten quite a bit better since then, at least at the top schools. For places like Columbia, NYU, Penn, etc. who place into markets that recovered the fastest (NYC), the numbers will be reflective of that. Though I'm not sure how much recovery there has been in other markets such as DC or Chicago (not saying there hasn't been any recovery, but I don't personally know how much)

kinda misleading to label this as the new info, but rank this by averaging three years.

the actual ranking of the top 20 this year:

1. Penn - 56.93%
2. Northwestern - 52.1%
3. Columbia - 51.65%
4. Harvard - 48.89%
5. Stanford - 48.07%
6. Berkeley - 45.9%
7. Chicago - 45.32%
8. Duke - 40.64%
9. NYU - 40.13%
10. Virginia - 39.79%
11. Cornell - 38.3%
12. USC - 32.85%
13. Michigan - 31.48%
14. Georgetown - 31.08%
15. Yale - 29.76%
16. UCLA - 22.67%
17. Vanderbilt - 22.05%
18. Boston College - 21.75%
19. Texas - 21.47%
20. Fordham - 19.58%

(gotta be honest, not concerned about nlj 250 myself, just wanted to rep penn.)

barneytrouble wrote:Yikes. Not pretty for uMich and texas.

edit: i didnt want to say anything before these numbers came out but it is nice to see cornell back closer to where it belongs; 38 rather than 58 percent. 2010s numbers were leading a ton of 0Ls astray imo.

double edit: also weird to see how much duke and northwestern both went up during the worst year ever.

If you mean that it is ranked #11 rather than #2 then, I kind of see your point, but if you think that 38% is where Cornell "belongs," I think you may be disappointed by the numbers the next two years.

KMaine wrote:

barneytrouble wrote:Yikes. Not pretty for uMich and texas.

edit: i didnt want to say anything before these numbers came out but it is nice to see cornell back closer to where it belongs; 38 rather than 58 percent. 2010s numbers were leading a ton of 0Ls astray imo.

double edit: also weird to see how much duke and northwestern both went up during the worst year ever.

If you mean that it is ranked #11 rather than #2 then, I kind of see your point, but if you think that 38% is where Cornell "belongs," I think you may be disappointed by the numbers the next two years.

Why? Cornell did great?

KMaine wrote:

barneytrouble wrote:Yikes. Not pretty for uMich and texas.

edit: i didnt want to say anything before these numbers came out but it is nice to see cornell back closer to where it belongs; 38 rather than 58 percent. 2010s numbers were leading a ton of 0Ls astray imo.

double edit: also weird to see how much duke and northwestern both went up during the worst year ever.

If you mean that it is ranked #11 rather than #2 then, I kind of see your point, but if you think that 38% is where Cornell "belongs," I think you may be disappointed by the numbers the next two years.

yea when i say "where they belong" i did not mean the 38% figure, just the ranking relative to other top schools.

just as a personal example my dad thought i was insane for not even applying there based on their 2010 stats. which is absurd when you think about how small their class is and how 10 people or even less could throw them from 11th to 2nd or whatever.

kaiser wrote:

johansantana21 wrote:So it can't get worse than this right?

I'd imagine its gotten quite a bit better since then, at least at the top schools. For places like Columbia, NYU, Penn, etc. who place into markets that recovered the fastest (NYC), the numbers will be reflective of that. Though I'm not sure how much recovery there has been in other markets such as DC or Chicago (not saying there hasn't been any recovery, but I don't personally know how much)

The economy has improved considerably since 2008. I mean. It's not great. But it isn't yuppie-jump-out-the-window either. I think the economy will do really well in 2013-2014 and will be back to normal in 2015.

I don't know how much it can possibly improve next year. Another strike against going to ls for me this year. I'd be more comfortable doing OCI in 2014 instead.

KMaine wrote:

barneytrouble wrote:Yikes. Not pretty for uMich and texas.

edit: i didnt want to say anything before these numbers came out but it is nice to see cornell back closer to where it belongs; 38 rather than 58 percent. 2010s numbers were leading a ton of 0Ls astray imo.

double edit: also weird to see how much duke and northwestern both went up during the worst year ever.

If you mean that it is ranked #11 rather than #2 then, I kind of see your point, but if you think that 38% is where Cornell "belongs," I think you may be disappointed by the numbers the next two years.

He's referring to the horde of 0L's who ran around the forums touting Cornell as a big law powerhouse.

Fair enough. Sorry if snarky.

Gail wrote:

kaiser wrote:

johansantana21 wrote:So it can't get worse than this right?

I'd imagine its gotten quite a bit better since then, at least at the top schools. For places like Columbia, NYU, Penn, etc. who place into markets that recovered the fastest (NYC), the numbers will be reflective of that. Though I'm not sure how much recovery there has been in other markets such as DC or Chicago (not saying there hasn't been any recovery, but I don't personally know how much)

The economy has improved considerably since 2008. I mean. It's not great. But it isn't yuppie-jump-out-the-window either. I think the economy will do really well in 2013-2014 and will be back to normal in 2015.

I don't know how much it can possibly improve next year. Another strike against going to ls for me this year. I'd be more comfortable doing OCI in 2014 instead.

The mistake here is to conflate the general state of the economy with the state of the hiring market for graduates of ABA law schools. The two are related obviously, but it's far from a simple relationship. The hiring market for the lawyers has been shedding jobs for 20 years now. In 2011 the legal services employment market was completely flat, even though the economy as a whole added more than 1.5 million jobs.

So should I go to WVU over UGA?