NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School Forum

[TMC116]

As someone who is very seriously considering NYU, can someone explain to me the NYU T-6 advantage because these numbers of the last 3 years seems to show no advantage compared to a lot of the lower T-14.

PI bias

UMich suffers from PI bias, too (at least to some degree)

[D-hops]

Is Michigan's career services really this bad?

[skers]

As someone who is very seriously considering NYU, can someone explain to me the NYU T-6 advantage because these numbers of the last 3 years seems to show no advantage compared to a lot of the lower T-14.

PI bias

UMich suffers from PI bias, too (at least to some degree)

I hate the PI bias rationale because while it exists to some exist it still carries an assumption that individuals self-selecting into PI could have otherwise landed big lawl jobs (true for sow, not for others). Also, PI selection bias seems to at least partially be a symptom of ITE.

[kaiser]

Yeah, poor economy or not, its definitely interesting to me that Cornell, Northwestern, UVA, Berkeley and Penn seem to be doing than NYU in the last few years when TLS wisdom always talks T6 puts you in better shape, etc etc. Then again, I heard NYU killed it last OCI, would be nice to have the most recent results instead of looking at 2 year old data, but I guess this is what we have to go with.

Unfortunately, TLS isn't always going to give you the most accurate picture. Remember that the majority of kids on this site are the real type A's, and those that are far more likely to be in the top half of the class. For top half kids at NYU, of course things are going well, as they did even during the tough years. The real change is what happens to those below median. In the boom years, being around the 60%-70% in your class wasn't too bad, but ITE makes that not such a good position to be in. The differences will always be at the margins, somewhere in the bottom half of the class. Where that margin happens to be now I coudln't tell you, nor could most people on this site, whose experience is more reflective of what it is like when you hit the upper half of the class.

So I don't want to go and make proclamations like "I think we had 55-60% biglaw" because I don't know where the margin really falls.

[Mr. Somebody]

Yeah, poor economy or not, its definitely interesting to me that Cornell, Northwestern, UVA, Berkeley and Penn seem to be doing than NYU in the last few years when TLS wisdom always talks T6 puts you in better shape, etc etc. Then again, I heard NYU killed it last OCI, would be nice to have the most recent results instead of looking at 2 year old data, but I guess this is what we have to go with.

Unfortunately, TLS isn't always going to give you the most accurate picture. Remember that the majority of kids on this site are the real type A's, and those that are far more likely to be in the top half of the class. For top half kids at NYU, of course things are going well, as they did even during the tough years. The real change is what happens to those below median. In the boom years, being around the 60%-70% in your class wasn't too bad, but ITE makes that not such a good position to be in. The differences will always be at the margins, somewhere in the bottom half of the class. Where that margin happens to be now I coudln't tell you, nor could most people on this site, whose experience is more reflective of what it is like when you hit the upper half of the class.

So I don't want to go and make proclamations like "I think we had 55-60% biglaw" because I don't know where the margin really falls.

Yeah and you have to be even more skeptical of the anecdotes around here like "Everyone I know has something" especially with schools like NYU that have a class of 450+....

[kaiser]

Yeah, poor economy or not, its definitely interesting to me that Cornell, Northwestern, UVA, Berkeley and Penn seem to be doing than NYU in the last few years when TLS wisdom always talks T6 puts you in better shape, etc etc. Then again, I heard NYU killed it last OCI, would be nice to have the most recent results instead of looking at 2 year old data, but I guess this is what we have to go with.

Unfortunately, TLS isn't always going to give you the most accurate picture. Remember that the majority of kids on this site are the real type A's, and those that are far more likely to be in the top half of the class. For top half kids at NYU, of course things are going well, as they did even during the tough years. The real change is what happens to those below median. In the boom years, being around the 60%-70% in your class wasn't too bad, but ITE makes that not such a good position to be in. The differences will always be at the margins, somewhere in the bottom half of the class. Where that margin happens to be now I coudln't tell you, nor could most people on this site, whose experience is more reflective of what it is like when you hit the upper half of the class.

So I don't want to go and make proclamations like "I think we had 55-60% biglaw" because I don't know where the margin really falls.

Yeah and you have to be even more skeptical of the anecdotes around here like "Everyone I know has something" especially with schools like NYU that have a class of 450+....

Pretty much everyone who says that is top half of the class, so the samples are of course skewed. As I readily admit, my circle of acquaintences includes transfers, journal people, etc. and people from gunnerish 2L courses. Every single person I know has a position, and this is the case for most people I talk to as well. But all of that is skewed since we are all largely talking about the same people (i.e. those in the upper half of the class, where of course things are going very well). So of course there is reason to be skeptical.

[Snape]

Yeah, poor economy or not, its definitely interesting to me that Cornell, Northwestern, UVA, Berkeley and Penn seem to be doing than NYU in the last few years when TLS wisdom always talks T6 puts you in better shape, etc etc. Then again, I heard NYU killed it last OCI, would be nice to have the most recent results instead of looking at 2 year old data, but I guess this is what we have to go with.

First there is no T-6 so too constantly emphasize that as any sort of factor is just not very smart. Second, b/c of NYUs huge transfer class and huge class in general--they are bound to get hit harder in a bad economy and thus their overall percentage falls. You should not be thinking T-6 over Duke/Penn/NU whatever....You should think what you want to do with your law degree: Example:

You want LA Big Law:

The T-crap or event T-14 means absolutely nothing and the rankings should look more like this to you:

Stanford/HY (Always in any market)

Boalt/USC/UCLA

NU/Columbia/Penn/Michigan/NYU/

Duke/GT/Cornell/UVA

Loyola and other regional LA schools

If you Want Chicago here are the rankings:

HYS (barely above)

NU/Chicago--(really no difference any way you look at it)

NYU/Columbia/Mich/Penn

ND/UIUC/Chicago regional schools and if you are at bottom T-14 or Vandy with significant ties to Chi

So what you need to do is think about where you want to be, where you want to live, where and what you want to practice, and then decide....if you want LA or Chi then I would assume you have much better prospects or smarter options than NYU though you would love your made-up T-6 label....

[rad lulz]

.

[Errzii]

I won't argue whether the arbitrary T6 is real or not, but if it is based on NLJ rather than USNWR then it should really be YHSCCNP. No, I'm not trolling. Penn has been consistently matching or outperforming NYU's NLJ placement for every class since 2005 (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=152447). Even when considering the compiled data of NLJ+A3 clerkships, NYU tends to underperform relative to its peers (CCN) while Penn overperforms relative its peers (MVPB) (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150004).

[ConfidenceMan2]

I won't argue whether the arbitrary T6 is real or not, but if it is based on NLJ rather than USNWR then it should really be YHSCCNP. No, I'm not trolling. Penn has been consistently matching or outperforming NYU's NLJ placement for every class since 2005 (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=152447). Even when considering the compiled data of NLJ+A3 clerkships, NYU tends to underperform relative to its peers (CCN) while Penn overperforms relative its peers (MVPB) (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150004).

While I think you might have a point beyond trolling, I'm not sure that you're actually contributing something.

If "T6" is based on NLJ rather than USNWR (or whatever) then Yale, for instance, is not in the T6. And Northwestern most certainly is in it. This is quite obvious and is being said repeatedly so I'm inclined to think that you just came in here to say P > N (which may or may not be accurate).

ETA: I'm not actually trying to contribute to a discussion about T6 CC >>>>N OR CCN OR CCP!?. In fact I'd be quite displeased if I did contribute to such a discussion. I'm merely trying to shut down a certain line of reasoning. Please feel free to dispute the TRUE T6 in your own head (anyone and everyone, not talking to Errzii here).

[skers]

T6 is based on a base of prestigious categories., not just nlj250.

[09042014]

I don't think CCN gives you a better chance at getting big law in general. I think there are a lot of elite firms that give an advantage to CCN students. They seemingly place twice as many students in V5 NYC firms. But I think most firms outside of the top ones, generally don't put too much stock in CCN being better.

I can't really think of another reason why CCN clearly outclasses the rest of the T14 in top firm placement, but is tied (or sometimes worse) with the lower T14 in total NLJ placement year after year after year.

[smokeylarue]

These numbers are making me question the T6, MVP, etc. mentality of these forums. Northwestern consistently outperforms Michigan yet its viewed on a lower tier. Penn consistently seems to outperform NYU (and pretty much everyone else), yet its viewed on a lower tier. I understand US News takes a lot of different stuff into account, but on these boards, when we refer to the HYS, CCN, MVPB, DCNG tiers, its usually correlated to meaning those tiers will give you a better chance at a job as you go up, but doesn't seem to be the case here.

[skers]

I don't think CCN gives you a better chance at getting big law in general. I think there are a lot of elite firms that give an advantage to CCN students. They seemingly place twice as many students in V5 NYC firms. But I think most firms outside of the top ones, generally don't put too much stock in CCN being better.

I can't really think of another reason why CCN clearly outclasses the rest of the T14 in top firm placement, but is tied (or sometimes worse) with the lower T14 in total NLJ placement year after year after year.

I'd be interested in comparisons in v100 placement between schools, rather than just nlj250.

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't think CCN gives you a better chance at getting big law in general. I think there are a lot of elite firms that give an advantage to CCN students. They seemingly place twice as many students in V5 NYC firms. But I think most firms outside of the top ones, generally don't put too much stock in CCN being better.

I can't really think of another reason why CCN clearly outclasses the rest of the T14 in top firm placement, but is tied (or sometimes worse) with the lower T14 in total NLJ placement year after year after year.

I'd be interested in comparisons in v100 placement between schools, rather than just nlj250.

Old data but I haven't seen anything better:

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

[09042014]

I don't think CCN gives you a better chance at getting big law in general. I think there are a lot of elite firms that give an advantage to CCN students. They seemingly place twice as many students in V5 NYC firms. But I think most firms outside of the top ones, generally don't put too much stock in CCN being better.

I can't really think of another reason why CCN clearly outclasses the rest of the T14 in top firm placement, but is tied (or sometimes worse) with the lower T14 in total NLJ placement year after year after year.

I'd be interested in comparisons in v100 placement between schools, rather than just nlj250.

I don't think it's worth much. The difference between a lower Vault 100 and No-vault is often location. There are plenty of nonvault firms that are clearly superior to some mid range vault TTT's.

[09042014]

These numbers are making me question the T6, MVP, etc. mentality of these forums. Northwestern consistently outperforms Michigan yet its viewed on a lower tier. Penn consistently seems to outperform NYU (and pretty much everyone else), yet its viewed on a lower tier. I understand US News takes a lot of different stuff into account, but on these boards, when we refer to the HYS, CCN, MVPB, DCNG tiers, its usually correlated to meaning those tiers will give you a better chance at a job as you go up, but doesn't seem to be the case here.

The CCN tier probably has some basis, but the MVPB - DNCG tiers never had any. As far as I can tell it's an law school message board constructed idea only. Even CCN is overhyped. HYS are clearly elite, and firms clearly agree. Outside of elite NYC firms I don't think CCN is a thing.

[rad lulz]

.

[D-hops]

These numbers are making me question the T6, MVP, etc. mentality of these forums. Northwestern consistently outperforms Michigan yet its viewed on a lower tier. Penn consistently seems to outperform NYU (and pretty much everyone else), yet its viewed on a lower tier. I understand US News takes a lot of different stuff into account, but on these boards, when we refer to the HYS, CCN, MVPB, DCNG tiers, its usually correlated to meaning those tiers will give you a better chance at a job as you go up, but doesn't seem to be the case here.

The CCN tier probably has some basis, but the MVPB - DNCG tiers never had any. As far as I can tell it's an law school message board constructed idea only. Even CCN is overhyped. HYS are clearly elite, and firms clearly agree. Outside of elite NYC firms I don't think CCN is a thing.

I think for clerkships it is probably a thing (more CC than N).

[09042014]

These numbers are making me question the T6, MVP, etc. mentality of these forums. Northwestern consistently outperforms Michigan yet its viewed on a lower tier. Penn consistently seems to outperform NYU (and pretty much everyone else), yet its viewed on a lower tier. I understand US News takes a lot of different stuff into account, but on these boards, when we refer to the HYS, CCN, MVPB, DCNG tiers, its usually correlated to meaning those tiers will give you a better chance at a job as you go up, but doesn't seem to be the case here.

The CCN tier probably has some basis, but the MVPB - DNCG tiers never had any. As far as I can tell it's an law school message board constructed idea only. Even CCN is overhyped. HYS are clearly elite, and firms clearly agree. Outside of elite NYC firms I don't think CCN is a thing.

I think for clerkships it is probably a thing (more CC than N).

All the clerkship data I've seen shows columbia being pretty TTT. I think it's more like Chicago does really well for itself in clerkships.

[D-hops]

These numbers are making me question the T6, MVP, etc. mentality of these forums. Northwestern consistently outperforms Michigan yet its viewed on a lower tier. Penn consistently seems to outperform NYU (and pretty much everyone else), yet its viewed on a lower tier. I understand US News takes a lot of different stuff into account, but on these boards, when we refer to the HYS, CCN, MVPB, DCNG tiers, its usually correlated to meaning those tiers will give you a better chance at a job as you go up, but doesn't seem to be the case here.

The CCN tier probably has some basis, but the MVPB - DNCG tiers never had any. As far as I can tell it's an law school message board constructed idea only. Even CCN is overhyped. HYS are clearly elite, and firms clearly agree. Outside of elite NYC firms I don't think CCN is a thing.

I think for clerkships it is probably a thing (more CC than N).

All the clerkship data I've seen shows columbia being pretty TTT. I think it's more like Chicago does really well for itself in clerkships.

I think that is probably self-selection similar to the way NU does really shitty in clerkships, but I dunno.

[Bronck]

All the clerkship data I've seen shows columbia being pretty TTT. I think it's more like Chicago does really well for itself in clerkships.

Hell, Chicago isn't even really that different from CLS/NYU and lower T14. That's more of a myth propagated by Chicago trolls.

[booboo]

I don't think CCN gives you a better chance at getting big law in general. I think there are a lot of elite firms that give an advantage to CCN students. They seemingly place twice as many students in V5 NYC firms. But I think most firms outside of the top ones, generally don't put too much stock in CCN being better.

I can't really think of another reason why CCN clearly outclasses the rest of the T14 in top firm placement, but is tied (or sometimes worse) with the lower T14 in total NLJ placement year after year after year.

I think your intuition is probably right. What is the value of a middling CCN student compared to a non-HYSCCN student with better grades. If CCN is clearly outclassing top vault firm placement it implies two things: (1) that these firms are going deeper into the classes of CCN, thus leaving the middling students for the non-top vault firms, who would rather have successful students from other top schools than the remains of the top firms (assuming, of course, that a large majority of students choose a firm based on preftige) and (2) since the number of spots for non-HYSCCN is being crowded out by more CCN students, there are more top students at the non-HYSCCN who are ripe for picking by the non top vault firms, which in comparison to middling CCN students, have an advantage.

[skers]

These numbers are making me question the T6, MVP, etc. mentality of these forums. Northwestern consistently outperforms Michigan yet its viewed on a lower tier. Penn consistently seems to outperform NYU (and pretty much everyone else), yet its viewed on a lower tier. I understand US News takes a lot of different stuff into account, but on these boards, when we refer to the HYS, CCN, MVPB, DCNG tiers, its usually correlated to meaning those tiers will give you a better chance at a job as you go up, but doesn't seem to be the case here.

The CCN tier probably has some basis, but the MVPB - DNCG tiers never had any. As far as I can tell it's an law school message board constructed idea only. Even CCN is overhyped. HYS are clearly elite, and firms clearly agree. Outside of elite NYC firms I don't think CCN is a thing.

Yeah, the MVPDNC distinction does seem to be worthless w/r/t employment prospects.

As far as the CCN tier, I've heard both sides from people in the legal industry. It'd probably be more relevant to compare SA numbers than NLJ250 numbers to account for clerkships and what not, especially if we had anything regarding GPA data. Something like this gets at your point off a difference at the selective firms, but the data is outdated and we can't completely account for self-selection.

[dixiecupdrinking]

IIRC from the threads last spring, Career Services at CLS and NYU reported that almost precisely the same percentage of 2Ls who participated in EIW/EIP (in the fall of 2010) got at least one offer. Dunno how to reconcile that with the NLJ data (reflects different years; NYU people summer but don't go back to firms; NYU people get no-offered), but there it is.

I think it would be very silly to choose Penn over NYU specifically to get a NYC biglaw job, but I also think that they're close enough that if you have a legitimate preference for Penn you're certainly not wrong to go there. But I also continue to believe that's basically the same as with all of the T10 or so.