Top Law Schools

Ideally I'd like to go: prestigious clerkship-->biglaw-->academia. Northwestern and Georgetown are also in play, but no word on money yet.

.

.

Duke. You won't get academia from any of these and Duke is the middle ground between biglaw/debt.

I had a feeling that's what the responses would look like. I realize academia is pipe-dreamish. Knowing this, I'm wondering if the slight boost that NYU gives in this regard is worth the debt. If my work product is very stellar when I go on the teaching market, will it make much of a difference whether my degree is from NYU or Duke?

.

bee wrote:

kaveman wrote:I had a feeling that's what the responses would look like. I realize academia is pipe-dreamish. Knowing this, I'm wondering if the slight boost that NYU gives in this regard is worth the debt. If my work product is very stellar when I go on the teaching market, will it make much of a difference whether my degree is from NYU or Duke?

You have absolutely no way of knowing this. Take money.

Ya. Thanks for posting. I think I only posted on the off chance that someone would be gung-ho for NYU here (I'm trying to rationalize taking the debt because of how cool it would be to live in New York).

kaveman wrote:

bee wrote:

kaveman wrote:I had a feeling that's what the responses would look like. I realize academia is pipe-dreamish. Knowing this, I'm wondering if the slight boost that NYU gives in this regard is worth the debt. If my work product is very stellar when I go on the teaching market, will it make much of a difference whether my degree is from NYU or Duke?

You have absolutely no way of knowing this. Take money.

Ya. Thanks for posting. I think I only posted on the off chance that someone would be gung-ho for NYU here (I'm trying to rationalize taking the debt because of how cool it would be to live in New York).

Cooler than Durham? Pa-leeze.

Duke and NYU won't hold you back provided you get good grades, publish quality work, and build relationships with reputed faculty members (both at your home institution and at other top schools).

If your heart is really set on academia, your chances are fairly similar from NYU and Duke and not much worse from UCLA. From any of these schools, however, it is unlikely to land legal academia without additional training (e.g., a PHD). If legal academia is really your dream job, you might want to try to transfer to Yale or, failing that, Harvard, Stanford or Chicago. It is worth bearing in mind as well that there is a significant possibility that the legal academic job market will contract in the near future, given that there are far more law students than there are projected new legal jobs for the foreseeable future and the model of ever-increasing tuition fueled by federal loans is meeting with increasing resistance.
Brian Leiter breaks down academic job placement here: http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml and here:http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

I'll advocate NYU. Your chances at the career you want are pretty much non-existent at Duke or UCLA. NYU at least has been making an effort to boost its clerkship numbers and has instituted programs to help out future legal academics (such as the Furman Scholars program, which you can apply to during law school). Who knows how well they will succeed, but at least they're trying. If you go to Duke, you are still going to owe 100k+ after you graduate, so while 60k is a lot of money to throw away, if it means completely foreclosing your desired career path, NYU might still be worth it. Also, if you don't do well enough for clerkship/academia, it's going to be easier to get biglaw from NYU than it is from Duke.

I hate it when people say your chances are practically non-existant.
As you said, you intend to clerk, then go to biglaw, before academia.

Well, during those early years (clerkship/biglaw) make sure you publish articles regularly. Try to do important and notable work, while cultivating relationships at various law schools. If you make the right moves, you can get there. There are plenty of professors out there who did not go YSH (easily more than half), so it's possible.

NYU places better into clerkship, biglaw, and academia than either of your other choices. So NYU.

Also, maybe you can negotiate some scholly from them after the financial aid info comes out?

Doorkeeper wrote:NYU places better into clerkship, biglaw, and academia than either of your other choices. So NYU.

Also, maybe you can negotiate some scholly from them after the financial aid info comes out?

According to any available data, this is wrong concerning clerkship placement (admittedly, not wrong concerning BigLaw placement).

Art. III Clerkship Placement (Duke vs. NYU)
2007: 11.7% vs. 7.3%
2008: 13% vs. 8.5%
2009: 11.5% vs. 7.8%

Some could have to do with self-selection, etc. Still, I would take Duke when your desired career path, the money, and your slim chance at academia in general are taken into account. Keep in mind, $60k from Duke probably means that COA could approach $100k difference after factoring in potential NYC COL.

Duke

lawyerwannabe wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:NYU places better into clerkship, biglaw, and academia than either of your other choices. So NYU.

Also, maybe you can negotiate some scholly from them after the financial aid info comes out?

According to any available data, this is wrong concerning clerkship placement (admittedly, not wrong concerning BigLaw placement).

Art. III Clerkship Placement (Duke vs. NYU)
2007: 11.7% vs. 7.3%
2008: 13% vs. 8.5%
2009: 11.5% vs. 7.8%

Some could have to do with self-selection, etc. Still, I would take Duke when your desired career path, the money, and your slim chance at academia in general are taken into account. Keep in mind, $60k from Duke probably means that COA could approach $100k difference after factoring in potential NYC COL.

1) This is not a per applicant statistic, so it matters a lot less when considering a large law school like NYU.

2) I would like to see the geographic and Art. III breakdown of this (district vs. circuit).

Looking over the hires for this year in legal academia, I'm seeing 11 NYU grads reported so far, but 1 Duke grad. Yes these numbers are very low, but if one wants academia and is willing to push for it as a law student, I think it's important to consider this disparity.
See: --LinkRemoved--

hicrhodus wrote:If your heart is really set on academia, your chances are fairly similar from NYU and Duke and not much worse from UCLA. From any of these schools, however, it is unlikely to land legal academia without additional training (e.g., a PHD). If legal academia is really your dream job, you might want to try to transfer to Yale or, failing that, Harvard, Stanford or Chicago. It is worth bearing in mind as well that there is a significant possibility that the legal academic job market will contract in the near future, given that there are far more law students than there are projected new legal jobs for the foreseeable future and the model of ever-increasing tuition fueled by federal loans is meeting with increasing resistance.
Brian Leiter breaks down academic job placement here: http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml and here:http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

This is solid (but I would say that UCLA will give you much worse odds). A law professor posted a thread about entering legal academia and s/he said that besides HYS/C, any degree from the T-14 is looked on favorably. It will matter more what you publish, whether you have other advanced degrees, good grades and prestigious clerkship/work experience.

lawyerwannabe wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:NYU places better into clerkship, biglaw, and academia than either of your other choices. So NYU.

Also, maybe you can negotiate some scholly from them after the financial aid info comes out?

According to any available data, this is wrong concerning clerkship placement (admittedly, not wrong concerning BigLaw placement).

Art. III Clerkship Placement (Duke vs. NYU)
2007: 11.7% vs. 7.3%
2008: 13% vs. 8.5%
2009: 11.5% vs. 7.8%

Some could have to do with self-selection, etc. Still, I would take Duke when your desired career path, the money, and your slim chance at academia in general are taken into account. Keep in mind, $60k from Duke probably means that COA could approach $100k difference after factoring in potential NYC COL.

OP said "prestigious clerkship". If you look at COA clerkships on --LinkRemoved-- Duke does noticeably worse in highly competitive circuits (2/9/DC) and NYU even does comparably in Duke's home circuit.

I would say clerkship prospects are the only reason to lean NYU if this is OP's path, but I don't think it's a good idea. Duke is a much safer bet, and UCLA might even be a better bet if OP likes the west coast and wants to have a shot to clerk on the 9th circuit. Clearly minimal debt is preferable if one wants to do clerk-> academia.

I also think that using percentages in clerkship placement is not always fair. Yes, NYU has 2x the students than Duke, however the raw number of people placed in those types of positions matters a lot to an individual.

I would go to NYU if I had your interests - when you are looking at prestigious clerkships/academia, that extra few ranking spots can really make a difference.

Additionally, you seem to really want to go to NYU. I'd go to the school/city I prefer for an extra 20K a year.

Thanks for the input everyone. Gonna be a tough choice. Hopefully I can get NYU to toss me some money, or at least get some more from Duke.

Shaggier1 wrote:I would go to NYU if I had your interests - when you are looking at prestigious clerkships/academia, that extra few ranking spots can really make a difference.

Additionally, you seem to really want to go to NYU. I'd go to the school/city I prefer for an extra 20K a year.

With cost of living added in, you would borrow 70k+ at around 8% interest to live in NYC 9 months of the year? I'm not saying NYU doesn't have placement advantages over duke but that amount of money is far from chump change, in addition duke's COL allowance is pretty high for the area while living/socializing decently in manhattan/NYC would be tough with NYU's budget.

JUST got into Michigan as well. The plot thickens.

NYU is attempting to spend more resources on promoting student interest and ability in federal clerking. Based on the stats I've seen, NYU can get you a prestigious clerkship. The problem lies more with getting the GPA for that clerkship.

kaveman wrote:I had a feeling that's what the responses would look like. I realize academia is pipe-dreamish. Knowing this, I'm wondering if the slight boost that NYU gives in this regard is worth the debt. If my work product is very stellar when I go on the teaching market, will it make much of a difference whether my degree is from NYU or Duke?

If your work product (assuming this means after law school) then no one will care where you went to school.
Which law school you go to gives you a better shot at the starting gate, but 10 years down the road no one will care.
UCLA will give you a decent shot at a clerkship on the 9th circuit and as you won't have a lot of debt, you can do whatever you want (even take a second clerkship, if you want)
As for academia, your odds are pretty much the same for all three. Just make sure that you make the right moves after you graduate (publish lots of articles, maintain good relationships at your school)

Don't be a fool by spending $200k for a marginally better better chance. If you're happy with living on the west coast, go for UCLA. If you'd rather be on the east coast, go to Duke ($60k is a good chunk of change)

dingbat wrote: UCLA will give you a decent shot at a clerkship on the 9th circuit

lol define "decent"