Top Law Schools

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:12 pm**

Hofstra with 25000 annual scholarship or WL at sticker price.
Where would you go and why?

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:34 pm**

Neither because of the bad job prospects juxtaposed with the debt. Retake or don't go.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:08 pm**

I have 20 grand a year from depaul. I'm sure I can use it to get a full ride at Hofstra.

Thanks for the advice grizz, anyone else?

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:13 pm**

Grizz wrote:Retake or don't go.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:14 pm**

Grizz wrote:Neither because of the bad job prospects juxtaposed with the debt. Retake or don't go.

Yep this. I wouldn't go to either school absent a full ride. Actually I probably wouldn't go to Hofstra even with a full ride.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:32 pm**

Ah, the usual "retake or don't go" vultures. I don't see why anyone that isn't looking at T14s or T30 with full schollys even asks questions on this website anymore.

Personally, I would do W&L. Is it expensive? Of course. Is it a good school? Very much so. Hofstra has a top 40% stipulation for their schollys usually and is, in my opinion, not even a Top 100 school despite its official ranking. If you can do well at W&L, you could always try to negotiate a scholly or transfer to a T14 (especially GULC) very easily from there. Hofstra, on the other hand, is being sued for providing misleading employment figures.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:38 pm**

Fine, I'll give a more substantive answer.

OP, where do you want to work? Because those are both regional schools that are over 400 miles away from each other. The W&L name doesn't carry well into NY, and Hofstra doesn't carry well anywhere (but at least people in NYC have even heard of it).

Either way, you're looking at a lot of debt and no light at the end of the tunnel.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:44 pm**

iceicebaby wrote:Ah, the usual "retake or don't go" vultures. I don't see why anyone that isn't looking at T14s or T30 with full schollys even asks questions on this website anymore.

Personally, I would do W&L. Is it expensive? Of course. Is it a good school? Very much so. Hofstra has a top 40% stipulation for their schollys usually and is, in my opinion, not even a Top 100 school despite its official ranking. If you can do well at W&L, you could always try to negotiate a scholly or transfer to a T14 (especially GULC) very easily from there. Hofstra, on the other hand, is being sued for providing misleading employment figures.

They're right about the retake or don't go. The sad fact is that even strong regional schools aren't really good enough when they cost around 200k if not more, at least 1/5 if not closer to 1/3 of their class don't get full time jobs as lawyers, and only about 20% of their class actually gets jobs that make repaying 6 figures worth of debt feasible.

1. 28% of W&L's 2009 class didn't get full time jobs as lawyers within 9 months of graduation.
2. At best, 30% of their class is going to be making 6 figures (it's likely worse now and around 20%).
3. W&L costs $180k+ debt before interest.

In light of those 3 things, how can anybody recommend W&L at sticker? Your comment about transferring and negotiating scholarship money is completely off-base. To do those things he would need to be around the top 10% of his class and guess what, there is a 90% chance he's not going to be in the top 10%.

Are strong regional schools "good" schools? Well under a certain metric yes they are "good" considering they are often the best schools in the region (outside of T14's). But at this time they are completely overpriced. This isn't 25 years ago where state schools cost 4k/year and private schools cost 15k/year (in 2010 dollars). Add on to that the recent legal hiring crunch makes even strong regional schools at sticker bad bets (and heck one could argue lower T14's as well).

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:55 pm**

thanks for the responses.

I have another question.

My current lsat score is a 160. My last 6-7 practice tests before test-day were all 170+. (the day of the test I fucked up LGs)
I am planning on retaking my lsat this summer.

If I were to transfer after 1L, I was told they would not consider my new lsat score (or any) and they base decisions solely on law school grades. Does anyone know if this is true?

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:58 pm**

umarzulqarnain wrote:thanks for the responses.

I have another question.

My current lsat score is a 160. My last 6-7 practice tests before test-day were all 170+. (the day of the test I fucked up LGs)
I am planning on retaking my lsat this summer.

If I were to transfer after 1L, I was told they would not consider my new lsat score (or any) and they base decisions solely on law school grades. Does anyone know if this is true?

The LSAT is only correlated to 1L success. Its predictive powers do not extend past that. So if you don't do well in your first year, then there's no way your LSAT is going to help you transfer. You need to have great grades to transfer. LSAT plays almost no role in transfer decisions (regardless of first try or retake score).

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:03 pm**

InGoodFaith wrote:
umarzulqarnain wrote:thanks for the responses.

I have another question.

My current lsat score is a 160. My last 6-7 practice tests before test-day were all 170+. (the day of the test I fucked up LGs)
I am planning on retaking my lsat this summer.

If I were to transfer after 1L, I was told they would not consider my new lsat score (or any) and they base decisions solely on law school grades. Does anyone know if this is true?
The LSAT is only correlated to 1L success. Its predictive powers do not extend past that. So if you don't do well in your first year, then there's no way your LSAT is going to help you transfer. You need to have great grades to transfer. LSAT plays almost no role in transfer decisions (regardless of first try or retake score).

Thanks, I just wanted to confirm.
I figured perhaps a combination of grades/lsat after 1L, I guess not.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:06 pm**

InGoodFaith wrote:
umarzulqarnain wrote:thanks for the responses.

I have another question.

My current lsat score is a 160. My last 6-7 practice tests before test-day were all 170+. (the day of the test I fucked up LGs)
I am planning on retaking my lsat this summer.

If I were to transfer after 1L, I was told they would not consider my new lsat score (or any) and they base decisions solely on law school grades. Does anyone know if this is true?
The LSAT is only correlated to 1L success. Its predictive powers do not extend past that. So if you don't do well in your first year, then there's no way your LSAT is going to help you transfer. You need to have great grades to transfer. LSAT plays almost no role in transfer decisions (regardless of first try or retake score).

Also, schools don't care because that LSAT doesn't factor into USNWR rankins

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:08 pm**

umarzulqarnain wrote:thanks for the responses.

I have another question.

My current lsat score is a 160. My last 6-7 practice tests before test-day were all 170+. (the day of the test I fucked up LGs)
I am planning on retaking my lsat this summer.

If I were to transfer after 1L, I was told they would not consider my new lsat score (or any) and they base decisions solely on law school grades. Does anyone know if this is true?

1. If you're retaking, don't go to law school this cycle. If you don't get a 170+ this summer then retake again in the fall.

2. Don't go into law school thinking about transferring. The correlation between GPA/LSAT and law school grades, while strong for a social science statistic, is not nearly strong enough to bank on for getting you good grades (not to mention that your peers will have similar LSAT/GPA combos). There will be a roughly 90% chance that you won't have good enough grades to transfer.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:37 pm**

I would not go to these schools unless they paid me $50,000 per year to do so.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:09 pm**

umarzulqarnain wrote:thanks for the responses.

I have another question.

My current lsat score is a 160. My last 6-7 practice tests before test-day were all 170+. (the day of the test I fucked up LGs)
I am planning on retaking my lsat this summer.

If I were to transfer after 1L, I was told they would not consider my new lsat score (or any) and they base decisions solely on law school grades. Does anyone know if this is true?

Please, please, please retake and do not go this fall. It is far, far easier to score higher on the LSAT than it is to go to a school and get good enough grades to transfer. If you were PTing around 170, you owe it to yourself to take a year off. That 170 is attainable if you keep working hard and focusing on your goals.

Look at it this way: say you went to W&L at sticker. Now let's say instead of doing that you retook the LSAT and got a 170, took a year off, and reapplied and got a full ride to W&L. That year off was the equivalent to a $150,000+ salary. Are you telling me that if someone said, "Hey, I'll give you $100,000+ to take a year off and retake the LSAT" that you wouldn't take it? Hopefully that puts your decision into perspective.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:10 pm**

romothesavior wrote:
umarzulqarnain wrote:thanks for the responses.

I have another question.

My current lsat score is a 160. My last 6-7 practice tests before test-day were all 170+. (the day of the test I fucked up LGs)
I am planning on retaking my lsat this summer.

If I were to transfer after 1L, I was told they would not consider my new lsat score (or any) and they base decisions solely on law school grades. Does anyone know if this is true?
Please, please, please retake and do not go this fall. It is far, far easier to score higher on the LSAT than it is to go to a school and get good enough grades to transfer. If you were PTing around 170, you owe it to yourself to take a year off. That 170 is attainable if you keep working hard and focusing on your goals.

Look at it this way: say you went to W&L at sticker. Now let's say instead of doing that you retook the LSAT and got a 170, took a year off, and reapplied and got a full ride to W&L. That year off was the equivalent to a $150,000+ salary. Are you telling me that if someone said, "Hey, I'll give you $100,000+ to take a year off and retake the LSAT" that you wouldn't take it? Hopefully that puts your decision into perspective.

I really appreciate the sincere advice, thanks a lot!
Unfortunately the decision isn't that simple. Although I'm confident I will get that 170+ next round, other factors play into it as well. (pressure from parents/family to finish my education being one of them) I can't wait the extra year.
I will likely be picking a school this round, I know it'll be harder to find a proper job but I guess I'll figure something out.
I'm leaning towards Hofstra or Depaul (after negotiating a full-ride).

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:38 pm**

umarzulqarnain wrote:I really appreciate the sincere advice, thanks a lot!
Unfortunately the decision isn't that simple. Although I'm confident I will get that 170+ next round, other factors play into it as well. (pressure from parents/family to finish my education being one of them) I can't wait the extra year.
I will likely be picking a school this round, I know it'll be harder to find a proper job but I guess I'll figure something out.
I'm leaning towards Hofstra or Depaul (after negotiating a full-ride).

Unless your parents are helping to pay for your law school and will only pay for you if you go this year, it shouldn't matter. Be an adult and don't hamper your career prospects/take on a lot of debt just because your parents want you to. You're the one taking on 6 figures worth of debt, not them.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:02 pm**

Retake

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:29 pm**

bk187 wrote:
umarzulqarnain wrote:I really appreciate the sincere advice, thanks a lot!
Unfortunately the decision isn't that simple. Although I'm confident I will get that 170+ next round, other factors play into it as well. (pressure from parents/family to finish my education being one of them) I can't wait the extra year.
I will likely be picking a school this round, I know it'll be harder to find a proper job but I guess I'll figure something out.
I'm leaning towards Hofstra or Depaul (after negotiating a full-ride).
Be an adult and don't hamper your career prospects/take on a lot of debt just because your parents want you to. You're the one taking on 6 figures worth of debt, not them.

THIS.

Are your parents paying for your education? Are they giving you a well-paying job after you graduate? If either of those is no, then you need to be an adult about this and take ownership of your own education, and subsequently, your own life. We're not talking about some small thing here. We're talking about the difference of 150k+ in debt. We're talking about the difference between a shot at a big law firm that pays six-figures to start vs. doing shitlaw for the equivalent of what you could be making now.

Your entire future will look so much different if you go to a school like Vanderbilt on a near full ride vs. Hofstra or W&L at sticker. Your friends and family have no idea what they are talking about, and if they coerce you into going to law school now, they are doing you a huge disservice. If you get a 170 on your June LSAT and go to Hofstra or pay sticker at W&L, you are potentially squandering millions of dollars in future earnings. You (and your family) need to realize that.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:33 pm**

bk187 wrote:
umarzulqarnain wrote:I really appreciate the sincere advice, thanks a lot!
Unfortunately the decision isn't that simple. Although I'm confident I will get that 170+ next round, other factors play into it as well. (pressure from parents/family to finish my education being one of them) I can't wait the extra year.
I will likely be picking a school this round, I know it'll be harder to find a proper job but I guess I'll figure something out.
I'm leaning towards Hofstra or Depaul (after negotiating a full-ride).
Unless your parents are helping to pay for your law school and will only pay for you if you go this year, it shouldn't matter. Be an adult and don't hamper your career prospects/take on a lot of debt just because your parents want you to. You're the one taking on 6 figures worth of debt, not them.

I'm getting 100 grand from my parents.
That along with a full scholy at hofstra or depaul means no debt.

I don't know what I'll do. I'm waiting on some other schools as well. We'll see.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:36 pm**

umarzulqarnain wrote:I'm getting 100 grand from my parents.
That along with a full scholy at hofstra or depaul means no debt.

I don't know what I'll do. I'm waiting on some other schools as well. We'll see.

I think you need to talk to them and be honest about the difference in quality between a school like Hofstra and a decent T1 school. Talk to them about the kinds of schools a 170 LSAT can get you into. Show them statistics from http://www.lawschooltransparency.com if they don't believe you. It's worth it trying to convince them that 1 year of waiting now could be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of a legal career.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:41 pm**

romothesavior wrote:
bk187 wrote:
umarzulqarnain wrote:I really appreciate the sincere advice, thanks a lot!
Unfortunately the decision isn't that simple. Although I'm confident I will get that 170+ next round, other factors play into it as well. (pressure from parents/family to finish my education being one of them) I can't wait the extra year.
I will likely be picking a school this round, I know it'll be harder to find a proper job but I guess I'll figure something out.
I'm leaning towards Hofstra or Depaul (after negotiating a full-ride).
Be an adult and don't hamper your career prospects/take on a lot of debt just because your parents want you to. You're the one taking on 6 figures worth of debt, not them.
THIS.

Are your parents paying for your education? Are they giving you a well-paying job after you graduate? If either of those is no, then you need to be an adult about this and take ownership of your own education, and subsequently, your own life. We're not talking about some small thing here. We're talking about the difference of 150k+ in debt. We're talking about the difference between a shot at a big law firm that pays six-figures to start vs. doing shitlaw for the equivalent of what you could be making now.

Your entire future will look so much different if you go to a school like Vanderbilt on a near full ride vs. Hofstra or W&L at sticker. Your friends and family have no idea what they are talking about, and if they coerce you into going to law school now, they are doing you a huge disservice. If you get a 170 on your June LSAT and go to Hofstra or pay sticker at W&L, you are potentially squandering millions of dollars in future earnings. You (and your family) need to realize that.

Yeah I understand what you mean. The chances of a decent job at a school like hofstra or depaul are quite low. However they aren't zero, I personally thought 30% at biglaw from WL were pretty good odds.
Hofstra would make that what 10%?

I'll be making my decision in the coming weeks when I hear back from other schools. I'm Canadian and applied here as well, depending on the results I may just goto law school here.

bk187- they shouldn't be an issue, they'll try to convince me otherwise but at the end I make the decision.
I myself am not to keen on wasting a year. I understand everyones argument though.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:59 pm**

I agree with bk. Show them the difference in job prospects. Your odds of a six-figure job are going to triple, quadruple, even quintuple if you get an LSAT score over 170. If you are deadset on going this fall, you're really hurting yourself. Again, this could well be the difference in millions of dollars in future earnings.

Also, you really think 10-30% odds are good? You wouldn't bet 100k of your parents' money on those odds in Vegas, so don't do it for law school either.

From a practical standpoint, retaking the LSAT makes little sense if you are this dead set on going now. Maybe W&L ups their scholarship offer if you do well, but no school will care at all about your LSAT score if you try to transfer (also, banking on transferring = really bad idea). You need to grow up and talk to your parents. Otherwise, just go to Hofstra for free and forget about retaking in June, because it won't matter.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:32 pm**

According to your numbers, OP, there's a 70% chance you're not getting biglaw at W&L (it's probably closer to 80% IMO) and a 90% chance you're not getting it at Hofstra. The vast majority of people who go to law school did well in undergrad and assumes it'll carry over into law school. Heck, it's even human nature to overestimate your abilities. I'm not saying you can't do it, but the odds are you won't. By going to a substantially better school, you're increasing your odds at success. Best of luck with your decision, but I cannot think of anything worse than struggling to pay your bills five years down the line and wondering "what if" you waited a single year to apply with a 170.

Posted: **Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:13 pm**

I appreciate all the advice. wish everyone all the best in your future as well.

I just got into U of minnesota
They are ranked 20th overall.
I don't have scholarship information yet however it should be coming soon. Is it worth it to go there at sticker price (if I don't get a scholy).

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