T14s on the rise ? Forum

[Renzo]

It's no secret that I go to Michigan. But I've never trolled for Michigan being anything more than exactly what it is: a peer school in the MVPDCN bracket that's no more on decline than any of those schools. The only time I "troll" for Michigan is to rebut anti-Michigan trolls. Like most anti-Michigan trolls, you've exhausted your substantive arguments.

This is credited. When I mean to say that it has declined, I mean that over the past 20 years it has gone from being seen as a peer of Harvard, Columbia, and UCHi to being merely a solid and well-respected T10 school.

[kaiser]

Michigan isn't regional at all; at least not from the people I hang out with. The people I know are going all over the place (Chicago, NY, SF, DC, random secondary markets) and some got offers in multiple markets.

I don't think Michigan is regional either. Its sort of in a "hub" location where I'd imagine students scatter in all directions to all parts of the country. It doesn't have a "home base" so to speak like NYU or Boalt does. Seems to lend itself to having a national reputation since students go all over the place to create familiarity with the school in every corner of the country.

[koalatriste]

Yale is regional.


Hth.

[TMC116]

Michigan is a top 10 school and peers w/ Penn, berkley, duke, etc. This bashing is starting to become comical

Keep it in perspective

[worldtraveler]

No one besides neurotic 0Ls cares if your school falls from #7 to #8 in a year. Seriously, no one. Once you get within the T10, or maybe even T14 you should be evaluating based on how much you like the school, the location, certain programs you like, cost, placement, and LRAP and not whether you think it will go up or down 1 or 2 spots in the near future.

[johansantana21]

Georgetown for sure. It's going to become HYSG soon.

[WSJ_Law]

IBQO

[Addy]

No one besides neurotic 0Ls cares if your school falls from #7 to #8 in a year. Seriously, no one.

Nobody wants their school to fall. My guess is that the #7 school (this year Penn and Mich) would LOVE to crack the T-6. No idea why T-6 is such a big deal, but apparently it is.

The 6 schools in today’s T-6 have been there since ’09 (maybe longer but that is all the data I have). One school [UCB] dropped out of the T-6 a couple of years ago (back when the T-6 had 7 schools. . .like today where the T-14 has fifteen schools).

[hyakku]

No one besides neurotic 0Ls cares if your school falls from #7 to #8 in a year. Seriously, no one. Once you get within the T10, or maybe even T14 you should be evaluating based on how much you like the school, the location, certain programs you like, cost, placement, and LRAP and not whether you think it will go up or down 1 or 2 spots in the near future.

I dont think it's a matter of just numbers. It's all of those factors you said being taken into consideration such as placement, cost, location, student body, incoming faculty, etc. that are responsible for schools rising and falling. That's what I'm more interested in. The numbers seem to simply be an easy way to roughly determine who is doing the right things with their endowment. I think it would pretty useful to be able to see which admins are really making huge strides.

Also IAFG, I'm not sure how I missed that, I googled and didnt find that. Thanks for that. It's too bad they dont discuss certain details like the firms and judges they asked. Would be interesting to see.

[JamMasterJ]

It's no secret that I go to Michigan. But I've never trolled for Michigan being anything more than exactly what it is: a peer school in the MVPDCN bracket that's no more on decline than any of those schools. The only time I "troll" for Michigan is to rebut anti-Michigan trolls. Like most anti-Michigan trolls, you've exhausted your substantive arguments.

This is credited. When I mean to say that it has declined, I mean that over the past 20 years it has gone from being seen as a peer of Harvard, Columbia, and UCHi to being merely a solid and well-respected T10 school.

This is totally credited. At one point M was what, 3rd? And it's real respect (not simply it's ranking) reflected that.

WRT to IAFGs statement about a 4% difference in placement between CCN and DNC: Do you mean overall placement? because Biglaw placement is a bit further apart.

[03121202698008]

It's no secret that I go to Michigan. But I've never trolled for Michigan being anything more than exactly what it is: a peer school in the MVPDCN bracket that's no more on decline than any of those schools. The only time I "troll" for Michigan is to rebut anti-Michigan trolls. Like most anti-Michigan trolls, you've exhausted your substantive arguments.

This is credited. When I mean to say that it has declined, I mean that over the past 20 years it has gone from being seen as a peer of Harvard, Columbia, and UCHi to being merely a solid and well-respected T10 school.

This is totally credited. At one point M was what, 3rd? And it's real respect (not simply it's ranking) reflected that.

WRT to IAFGs statement about a 4% difference in placement between CCN and DNC: Do you mean overall placement? because Biglaw placement is a bit further apart.

BigLaw placement is hard to quantify because you have to account for self-selection. A large cross-section of MI comes in planning on PI and never attempts for BigLaw. That skews our BigLaw placement down some.

[JamMasterJ]

It's no secret that I go to Michigan. But I've never trolled for Michigan being anything more than exactly what it is: a peer school in the MVPDCN bracket that's no more on decline than any of those schools. The only time I "troll" for Michigan is to rebut anti-Michigan trolls. Like most anti-Michigan trolls, you've exhausted your substantive arguments.

This is credited. When I mean to say that it has declined, I mean that over the past 20 years it has gone from being seen as a peer of Harvard, Columbia, and UCHi to being merely a solid and well-respected T10 school.

This is totally credited. At one point M was what, 3rd? And it's real respect (not simply it's ranking) reflected that.

WRT to IAFGs statement about a 4% difference in placement between CCN and DNC: Do you mean overall placement? because Biglaw placement is a bit further apart.

BigLaw placement is hard to quantify because you have to account for self-selection. A large cross-section of MI comes in planning on PI and never attempts for BigLaw. That skews our BigLaw placement down some.

I wasn't trying to make a case against any school, just making sure that she meant overall placement. Sorry for the confusion.

[Bronte]

This is totally credited. At one point M was what, 3rd? And it's real respect (not simply it's ranking) reflected that.

This at least part myth. When the US News rankings first came out, in 1987, Michigan was ranked third. US News then significantly reformulated the rankings methodology, and Michigan has been in the 7-10 range ever since.

Historical law school rankings:

1987-1999: http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... sn_history
2000-2008: http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

It certainly is true that it's a part of TLS lore that Michigan was once a peer to HYS. I don't know how true this is in reality, and I don't know that it matters. It certainly, almost 25 years later, has very little importance to current decision-making.

WRT to IAFGs statement about a 4% difference in placement between CCN and DNC: Do you mean overall placement? because Biglaw placement is a bit further apart.

You can deduce from these figures what you will. The data suggest to me that they cannot be relied upon to decide between schools in the minitiers:

2010 NLJ 250

1 Northwestern University School of Law 55.9%
2 Columbia Law School 54.4
3 Stanford Law School 54.1
4 University of Chicago Law School 53.1
5 University of Virginia School of Law 52.8
6 University of Michigan Law School 51
7 university of pennsylvania law school 50.8
8 New York University School of Law 50.1
9 University of California, Berkeley School of Law 50
10 Duke Law School 49.8

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

2011 NLJ 250

1 University of Chicago Law School 58.97%
2 Cornell Law School 58.33
3 Columbia Law School 55.20
4 university of pennsylvania law school 53.31
5 Harvard Law School 49.74
6 University of Virginia School of Law 46.79
7 University of California, Berkeley School of Law 45.61
8 Northwestern University School of Law 44.37
9 New York University School of Law* 43.27
10 University of Michigan Law School 42.47

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

[johansantana21]

It's no secret that I go to Michigan. But I've never trolled for Michigan being anything more than exactly what it is: a peer school in the MVPDCN bracket that's no more on decline than any of those schools. The only time I "troll" for Michigan is to rebut anti-Michigan trolls. Like most anti-Michigan trolls, you've exhausted your substantive arguments.

This is credited. When I mean to say that it has declined, I mean that over the past 20 years it has gone from being seen as a peer of Harvard, Columbia, and UCHi to being merely a solid and well-respected T10 school.

This is totally credited. At one point M was what, 3rd? And it's real respect (not simply it's ranking) reflected that.

WRT to IAFGs statement about a 4% difference in placement between CCN and DNC: Do you mean overall placement? because Biglaw placement is a bit further apart.

BigLaw placement is hard to quantify because you have to account for self-selection. A large cross-section of MI comes in planning on PI and never attempts for BigLaw. That skews our BigLaw placement down some.

How many people actually self select out of biglaw?

Isn't there a huge government freeze on hiring? And PI has always been rare.

[03121202698008]

How many people actually self select out of biglaw?

Isn't there a huge government freeze on hiring? And PI has always been rare.

Anecdotally, I'd say at least 1/4-1/3 self-select out. I forget the complete statistic but it's large. The large majority of them came here intending on working PI/Gov and never even did OCI (or did it only as a safety). From what I hear, the NoCI party they threw was quite the happening place.

Edit: Looks like 39% for 2L summer for PI/Gov. http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

For 2010 post-grad, it looks like 31% (10.7% PI, 9.8% Gov, and 11% clerk). http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

Even 2006 pre-crash it looks like ~21% went PO/Gov/Clerk.

[JamMasterJ]

This is totally credited. At one point M was what, 3rd? And it's real respect (not simply it's ranking) reflected that.

This at least part myth. When the US News rankings first came out, in 1987, Michigan was ranked third. US News then significantly reformulated the rankings methodology, and Michigan has been in the 7-10 range ever since.

Historical law school rankings:

1987-1999: http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... sn_history
2000-2008: http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

It certainly is true that it's a part of TLS lore that Michigan was once a peer to HYS. I don't know how true this is in reality, and I don't know that it matters. It certainly, almost 25 years later, has very little importance to current decision-making.

WRT to IAFGs statement about a 4% difference in placement between CCN and DNC: Do you mean overall placement? because Biglaw placement is a bit further apart.

You can deduce from these figures what you will. The data suggest to me that they cannot be relied upon to decide between schools in the minitiers:

2010 NLJ 250

1 Northwestern University School of Law 55.9%
2 Columbia Law School 54.4
3 Stanford Law School 54.1
4 University of Chicago Law School 53.1
5 University of Virginia School of Law 52.8
6 University of Michigan Law School 51
7 University of Pennsylvania Law School 50.8
8 New York University School of Law 50.1
9 University of California, Berkeley School of Law 50
10 Duke Law School 49.8

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

2011 NLJ 250

1 University of Chicago Law School 58.97%
2 Cornell Law School 58.33
3 Columbia Law School 55.20
4 University of Pennsylvania Law School 53.31
5 Harvard Law School 49.74
6 University of Virginia School of Law 46.79
7 University of California, Berkeley School of Law 45.61
8 Northwestern University School of Law 44.37
9 New York University School of Law* 43.27
10 University of Michigan Law School 42.47

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

I for one, don't believe the USNWR rankings are the only way to quantify the schools' relative merit. I think that they legitimately were better in comparison to the other schools at that point than they are now, regardless of the reason that they went down in ranking.

[johansantana21]

How many people actually self select out of biglaw?

Isn't there a huge government freeze on hiring? And PI has always been rare.

Anecdotally, I'd say at least 1/4-1/3 self-select out. I forget the complete statistic but it's large. The large majority of them came here intending on working PI/Gov and never even did OCI (or did it only as a safety). From what I hear, the NoCI party they threw was quite the happening place.

Edit: Looks like 39% for 2L summer for PI/Gov. http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

For 2010 post-grad, it looks like 10.7% PI, 9.8% Gov, and 11% clerk. http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

How many of those PI/Gov are actually from self selection? It's hard to believe that EVERYONE who went PI/GOV had a chance to do biglaw but chose PI/GOV instead.

It's more likely a lot of them missed out on the gravy train?

[03121202698008]

How many people actually self select out of biglaw?

Isn't there a huge government freeze on hiring? And PI has always been rare.

Anecdotally, I'd say at least 1/4-1/3 self-select out. I forget the complete statistic but it's large. The large majority of them came here intending on working PI/Gov and never even did OCI (or did it only as a safety). From what I hear, the NoCI party they threw was quite the happening place.

Edit: Looks like 39% for 2L summer for PI/Gov. http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

For 2010 post-grad, it looks like 10.7% PI, 9.8% Gov, and 11% clerk. http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

How many of those PI/Gov are actually from self selection? It's hard to believe that EVERYONE who went PI/GOV had a chance to do biglaw but chose PI/GOV instead.

It's more likely a lot of them missed out on the gravy train?

See my edit. Most didn't do OCI at all so it'd be hard to argue they missed out. Something like 60-75% of an incoming class claims they want PI. Even pre-crash we averaged 21% non-BigLaw. I'm not saying we place like Harved, just saying PI throws a big enough wrench in that you cannot draw generalizations from actual placement data.

[Bronte]

I for one, don't believe the USNWR rankings are the only way to quantify the schools' relative merit. I think that they legitimately were better in comparison to the other schools at that point than they are now, regardless of the reason that they went down in ranking.

I didn't say anything about the US News rankings being the only way to quantify the schools' relative merit. I'll break it down again: There's a thought that Michigan was once "regarded as a peer to HYS," and thus, given its current standing, it has "declined." To the extent that this is informed by the fact that it was once ranked third in US News, which is something that you brought up, this is misguided. The reason it's misguided is because the drop from 3rd to 7th in US News was based on a one-time methodology change. It therefore does not indicate a drop in public perception of Michigan from 1987 to 1988.

Now, it's possible that Michigan actually was viewed as a top 3 school prior to the late 80s. I have never seen any evidence of this, but it's possible. Somehow, though, I think it's a myth mostly born out of Michigan's 3rd place ranking in 1987. In any event, since 1988, the perception of Michigan as measured by US News surveys has remained relatively constant.

[TaipeiMort]

Thats why I was careful to say "regional" R.E. Michigan, Chicago is also nowhere near pre-recession levels of hiring.

So what? The University of Chicago and Northwestern also heavily depend on the Chicago job market. Michigan has never significantly depended on Detroit for jobs or on Michigan state for funding. The "Michigan in decline" thing is just the echo of trolls past, unless you're planning to take up the torch. Among the T14, MVPDCN, at least, are peers.

In general, the NLJ 250 numbers are okay for the big picture but, as IAFG said, are almost certainly not statistically significant to at least +/-5%. They shouldn't be used to differentiate between schools within the same general peer group. When you're looking at schools in the mini tiers, you should be going on money and subjective factors.

Chicago does rely on the local market. I would say that if anything it relies on the NYC an CA markets more so. There is high placement in Chicago, but largely from midwesterners. The students without market ties are going to NYC SoCal and DC.

[Grizz]

Greetings,

This is not only a new thread but also a very worthwhile thread that will not only increase the forum's communal knowledge but also greatly aid in people's decision as to which school is the best to attend.

I applaud you, OP.

[TaipeiMort]

Also Silicon Valley. Also, I forget who said it, but I don't think anyone would deny that Michigan has more practitioner prestige than all of the schools outside hyscc and maybe Penn.

[JamMasterJ]

I for one, don't believe the USNWR rankings are the only way to quantify the schools' relative merit. I think that they legitimately were better in comparison to the other schools at that point than they are now, regardless of the reason that they went down in ranking.

I didn't say anything about the US News rankings being the only way to quantify the schools' relative merit. I'll break it down again: There's a thought that Michigan was once "regarded as a peer to HYS," and thus, given its current standing, it has "declined." To the extent that this is informed by the fact that it was once ranked third in US News, which is something that you brought up, this is misguided. The reason it's misguided is because the drop from 3rd to 7th in US News was based on a one-time methodology change. It therefore does not indicate a drop in public perception of Michigan from 1987 to 1988.

Now, it's possible that Michigan actually was viewed as a top 3 school prior to the late 80s. I have never seen any evidence of this, but it's possible. Somehow, though, I think it's a myth mostly born out of Michigan's 3rd place ranking in 1987. In any event, since 1988, the perception of Michigan as measured by US News surveys has remained relatively constant.

So you're saying that Michigan never really was "third?"
I guess I can understand that

[rayiner]

Thats why I was careful to say "regional" R.E. Michigan, Chicago is also nowhere near pre-recession levels of hiring.

So what? The University of Chicago and Northwestern also heavily depend on the Chicago job market. Michigan has never significantly depended on Detroit for jobs or on Michigan state for funding. The "Michigan in decline" thing is just the echo of trolls past, unless you're planning to take up the torch. Among the T14, MVPDCN, at least, are peers.

In general, the NLJ 250 numbers are okay for the big picture but, as IAFG said, are almost certainly not statistically significant to at least +/-5%. They shouldn't be used to differentiate between schools within the same general peer group. When you're looking at schools in the mini tiers, you should be going on money and subjective factors.

This bears repeating. Individual schools swing +/- 10% in the NLJ250 rankings each year.

[rayiner]

How many of those PI/Gov are actually from self selection? It's hard to believe that EVERYONE who went PI/GOV had a chance to do biglaw but chose PI/GOV instead.

At least ITE, it's exceedingly difficult to get PI/Gov without having a resume that demonstrates you wanted it from the beginning.