Picking a Chicago law school Forum

[ktmrnll]

I recently sent in my 5 applications, all for schools in the Chicago area. Now that they're in, I'm trying to decided where I would want to go. My UG gpa was 3.43, LSAT was 163.

I applied to: University of Chicago, DePaul, Chicago-Kent, Loyola, and John Marshall.

I figure I won't get into UofC, short of some minor miracle. The others I figure I stand a fairly good chance of getting into, and I just don't know which would be the best option.

At the last forum I went too, the John Marshall rep said that I could probably get a full ride, and maybe a living stipend, which sounds awesome when looking at $160,000-170,000 in loans. But the stuff I've been reading makes it sound like I shouldn't even consider it unless it's last choice, such as the difficulty to find a job.

In any case, I'm having problems deciding what school to shoot for.

[ToTransferOrNot]

You won't get into Chicago. The other schools aren't worth going to unless they are basically free. John Marshall isn't worth going to unless it's free, you get a full CoL stipend, and you have no opportunity costs.

[homestyle28]

Presumably you have good reasons for staying in Chicago? I'd guess you have some shot at $ at Chi-Kent, which I'd put ahead of Loyola. Don't go to John Marshall unless you already have a solid post-JD job lined up...you have to realize that the Chicago legal market is still very tough and weigh that accordingly...plan on hustling from day 1 to secure your job at any of those schools (Obv UChi is out with your numbers).

[billyez]

I knew someone who went to John marshall who wound up doing really well (wound up being offered law review if she did some write-on thing or something), but really, it's a heck of a gamble. I'm not going to harp on grades or anything like that since I'm sure there's going to be a lot of prognostication going on in this thread to cover that field. What matters is, what do you want? Even with a full-ride and a stipend, recognize that you still have to do very well to get a job at JM. And if you don't get a job, you have a degree but at the cost of three years that could have been spent elsewhere.

P.S. Wait, what is this? You haven't even been offered it yet? Gosh. I'm being silly then, you should just come back when you can assess an actual full ride or something.

[cinephile]

Do you have to stay in Chicago?
What about trying for UIUC?

[IAFG]

Ugh... do NOT only apply to schools you want to go to. You need other admissions/aid offers to negotiate with.

But application fees are expensive!

So is law school. If I hadn't applied to all the peer schools of the schools I wanted to go to, I would be paying sticker right now. I negotiated my way from sticker to $50k over 3 years.

[lawschool899]

I'm from Chicago and have a lot of friends currently in law school. Kent is on the way up and is actually ranked higher than DePaul or Loyola, which most don't realize. I believe its also known as one of the most underrated law schools. I would not go to John Marshall. As for DePaul and Loyola, there is not much of a difference. The people I know like them a lot, Loyola has a bit of a better reputation but I'd go with who gave you more money. Also, why not Northwestern? If you're applying to Chicago you might as well throw one there too. Its quite a long shot though.

Hope this helps!

[ktmrnll]

I do have some personal reasons for wanting to stay in Chicago. I have considered UIUC, and have started the application, but haven't finished it yet. And yes, I know i won't make UofC.

I also know that it's a tough market out there, but that people graduate from these schools and have jobs. All of them boast 87-90% employment ratings 9 mo out. If I could get out virtually debt free, close to the top of my class, with a job, wouldn't that be worth going to one of these schools?

edit: I decided against applying to Northwestern because 1) it's more expensive, 2) I have just as little chance of getting in there as I do Chicago, 3) I would rather go to Chicago if I could get in. So, decision made there.

[Danteshek]

I do have some personal reasons for wanting to stay in Chicago. I have considered UIUC, and have started the application, but haven't finished it yet. And yes, I know i won't make UofC.

I also know that it's a tough market out there, but that people graduate from these schools and have jobs. All of them boast 87-90% employment ratings 9 mo out. If I could get out virtually debt free, close to the top of my class, with a job, wouldn't that be worth going to one of these schools?

(1) Have you been living under a rock for the past three years? Those employment statistics are pure, unadulterated, bullshit.

(2) You do understand that you have a 50% chance of being in the bottom 50% of your class, right? This applies even if you have a full ride at John Marshall.

[mattviphky]

working at mcdonalds counts as employed.

Join the Illinois Air National Guard (try to pick an easy job, like communications or something). You'll be able to save up money between now and next fall, plus it looks good on resumes. Also, free tuition to any in-state school at any level. ED UIUC....caveat is that you may not get into UIUC and you joined the Guard for nothing because both NIU and SIU would give you a full ride anyway. However, you would get GI BILL while in school, which would put 700 bucks a month in your pocket while your enrolled. I don't know if they have bonuses right now, but they were 15k when I joined...that might be gone now. But with GI Bill your CoL would go down a whole lot, so you'd be borrowing about 20k less over your time in school. I know this is a huge step that you would have probably already taken if you wanted to, but just a thought.

[Helmholtz]

Only Chicago law schools worth paying any amount of money for are Northwestern and UChicago. ESPECIALLY if you want to stay in Chicago after you graduate. This market is brutal. Either retake the LSAT or don't go to law school. I guess a case might be made for going to a school like John Marshall for free, but "free" is not really free: you're taking three years of your life and filling it with stress and a lot of other not-fun things; you're forgoing potential income and career advancement in other fields; and hell, you might even end up with worse job prospects than you have now (a JD can make you look like a flight risk if you leave it on your resume, and if you leave it off, well, you have a three-year gap to explain).

[CanadianWolf]

A JD on one's resume may not be viewed as a flight risk, but state bar membership will raise that concern.

[northside]

Only Chicago law schools worth paying any amount of money for are Northwestern and UChicago. ESPECIALLY if you want to stay in Chicago after you graduate. This market is brutal. Either retake the LSAT or don't go to law school. I guess a case might be made for going to a school like John Marshall for free, but "free" is not really free: you're taking three years of your life and filling it with stress and a lot of other not-fun things; you're forgoing potential income and career advancement in other fields; and hell, you might even end up with worse job prospects than you have now (a JD can make you look like a flight risk if you leave it on your resume, and if you leave it off, well, you have a three-year gap to explain).

Just like to say I work at a fairly well respected civil rights office in Chicago and only one of our lawyers is from UChicago. The rest are DePaul and Kent. Granted, they were all editors on law reviews while there.

I'm not sure what type of law OP is looking for but don't be so quick to say UChicago/NU or bust. Though John Marshall is its own story, I've heard a lot of lawyers say that the mindset of a DePaul/Loyola/Kent student differs from that of a UofC or NU one that at times is more beneficial. That being said, if you have the numbers to attend either of those schools you should certainly consider them. However, there tends to be a stigma that if you didn't at some point attend school in Hyde Park you might as well leave Chicago or kill yourself immediately. UChicago is a GREAT school. I'd love to attend but I didn't 170+ and hey--thats life but I'm still going to keep on going for that JD because though I didn't 99th percentile I still hit the 90th percentile and that is great for me (and maybe OP too).

And let us not forget that Kent's part time program is ranked #11. Their legal writing, #10. I don't think that's something to immediately turn down with money attached. But hey, looking at my user name you can guess I didn't study in Hyde Park so 90% of TLS agrees: I might as well leave, or go kill myself haha

[Helmholtz]

Just like to say I work at a fairly well respected civil rights office in Chicago and only one of our lawyers is from UChicago. The rest are DePaul and Kent. Granted, they were all editors on law reviews while there.

And let us not forget that Kent's part time program is ranked #11. Their legal writing, #10. I don't think that's something to immediately turn down with money attached. But hey, looking at my user name you can guess I didn't study in Hyde Park so 90% of TLS agrees: I might as well leave, or go kill myself haha

(1) How many of those lawyers graduated in the past few years? Times have changed drastically. Have you seen any statistics on how much legal hiring has frozen up in Chicago?

And let's say you work in a fairly well-respected civil-rights office in Chicago. Frankly, you're looking at the winners of DePaul and Kent Law School. What do you think happens to the losers? Editors-in-chief of the law reviews at low-tier Chicago schools have reported difficulty in finding legal employment over the past few years. If 5 percent of the class at DePaul ends up with awesome jobs, it's too easy to point toward those 5 percent and say, "Look! They went to DePaul and they're fine!" while completely ignoring the 95 percent. Hell, a fair portion of those 95 percent probably don't even have legal jobs of any sort, so they're especially invisible.

(2) The "specialty rankings" from USNWR are hilarious bullshit. Look into how those rankings are actually determined and it won't be difficult to see that. Nobody takes them seriously. If you were in a group of law students and mention that Chicago Kent has one of the top ten legal-writing programs, be prepared to get laughed at.

Honestly, people from UChicago Law have difficulty getting decent jobs in the city of Chicago. But at least with UChicago, you can branch out because the brand name of the law school has a national reach.

It's just a horrible, horrible time to be attending low-tier Chicago law schools.

[mrtoren]

Just like to say I work at a fairly well respected civil rights office in Chicago and only one of our lawyers is from UChicago. The rest are DePaul and Kent. Granted, they were all editors on law reviews while there.

And let us not forget that Kent's part time program is ranked #11. Their legal writing, #10. I don't think that's something to immediately turn down with money attached. But hey, looking at my user name you can guess I didn't study in Hyde Park so 90% of TLS agrees: I might as well leave, or go kill myself haha

(1) How many of those lawyers graduated in the past few years? Times have changed drastically. Have you seen any statistics on how much legal hiring has frozen up in Chicago?

And let's say you work in a fairly well-respected civil-rights office in Chicago. Frankly, you're looking at the winners of DePaul and Kent Law School. What do you think happens to the losers? Editors-in-chief of the law reviews at low-tier Chicago schools have reported difficulty in finding legal employment over the past few years. If 5 percent of the class at DePaul ends up with awesome jobs, it's too easy to point toward those 5 percent and say, "Look! They went to DePaul and they're fine!" while completely ignoring the 95 percent. Hell, a fair portion of those 95 percent probably don't even have legal jobs of any sort, so they're especially invisible.

(2) The "specialty rankings" from USNWR are hilarious bullshit. Look into how those rankings are actually determined and it won't be difficult to see that. Nobody takes them seriously. If you were in a group of law students and mention that Chicago Kent has one of the top ten legal-writing programs, be prepared to get laughed at.

Honestly, people from UChicago Law have difficulty getting decent jobs in the city of Chicago. But at least with UChicago, you can branch out because the brand name of the law school has a national reach.

It's just a horrible, horrible time to be attending low-tier Chicago law schools.

I'm backing northside on this one, I don't think you're giving Chicago a fair assessment.

Its easy to get caught up in the pessimism that festers on these boards, especially when you spend a lot of time on them. It also seems like the vast majority of users here have fallen into a game of one-up-manship to see who can offer the grimmest outlook for the future. Its not always as dark as it seems ($10 on someone saying its even "darker"). The reality is that Loyola, DePaul and Kent grads, hell even John Marshall grads, are among the top 10 schools that Chicago partners come from. Like its been stated on these boards a thousand times, "Oh the market has taken a turn for worse, its not the same ANYMORE." No. I don't buy it. Hiring patterns are like rocks and boulders..they takes a long, long time to change. Firms hire LOCAL (Ref: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/cypress ... t1111/#/16). They know the universities in the area, they trust them, they have alumni from them. Granted, there may not be as much hiring going on right now, but its still going to follow the same patterns.

I'll take the heat on this one, but I think the Chicago TT law schools are a decent option if you can keep your costs down.

[Helmholtz]

Its easy to get caught up in the pessimism that festers on these boards, especially when you spend a lot of time on them. It also seems like the vast majority of users here have fallen into a game of one-up-manship to see who can offer the grimmest outlook for the future. Its not always as dark as it seems ($10 on someone saying its even "darker"). The reality is that Loyola, DePaul and Kent grads, hell even John Marshall grads, are among the top 10 schools that Chicago partners come from. Like its been stated on these boards a thousand times, "Oh the market has taken a turn for worse, its not the same ANYMORE." No. I don't buy it. Hiring patterns are like rocks and boulders..they takes a long, long time to change. Firms hire LOCAL (Ref: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/cypress ... t1111/#/16). They know the universities in the area, they trust them, they have alumni from them. Granted, there may not be as much hiring going on right now, but its still going to follow the same patterns.

I'll take the heat on this one, but I think the Chicago TT law schools are a decent option if you can keep your costs down.

this is so far off the mark, it's painful

I wanted to respond to everything, but I think it would be pointless. Have you done OCI by any chance? Do you have friends in the Chicago schools or know people who graduated over the past couple years? It's this type of burying the head in the sand that is screwing people over.

You do realize that DePaul, Kent, and John Marshall are fighting off class-action lawsuits right now due to allegedly tortiously misrepresenting job placement statistics and violating state consumer protection laws? Something like a third of DePaul's don't even report salary/employment data (that or the school conveniently "loses" it). Honestly, there is a very decent chance that you will go to a low-tier Chicago law school and not be able to find any legal work.

[WSJ_Law]

Just get a 163 on the LSAT and enjoy a T20 (uiuc). Maybe they will waitlist 162s if apps are down this cycle. LOL

[JollyGreenGiant]

Just like to say I work at a fairly well respected civil rights office in Chicago and only one of our lawyers is from UChicago. The rest are DePaul and Kent. Granted, they were all editors on law reviews while there.

And let us not forget that Kent's part time program is ranked #11. Their legal writing, #10. I don't think that's something to immediately turn down with money attached. But hey, looking at my user name you can guess I didn't study in Hyde Park so 90% of TLS agrees: I might as well leave, or go kill myself haha

(1) How many of those lawyers graduated in the past few years? Times have changed drastically. Have you seen any statistics on how much legal hiring has frozen up in Chicago?

And let's say you work in a fairly well-respected civil-rights office in Chicago. Frankly, you're looking at the winners of DePaul and Kent Law School. What do you think happens to the losers? Editors-in-chief of the law reviews at low-tier Chicago schools have reported difficulty in finding legal employment over the past few years. If 5 percent of the class at DePaul ends up with awesome jobs, it's too easy to point toward those 5 percent and say, "Look! They went to DePaul and they're fine!" while completely ignoring the 95 percent. Hell, a fair portion of those 95 percent probably don't even have legal jobs of any sort, so they're especially invisible.

(2) The "specialty rankings" from USNWR are hilarious bullshit. Look into how those rankings are actually determined and it won't be difficult to see that. Nobody takes them seriously. If you were in a group of law students and mention that Chicago Kent has one of the top ten legal-writing programs, be prepared to get laughed at.

Honestly, people from UChicago Law have difficulty getting decent jobs in the city of Chicago. But at least with UChicago, you can branch out because the brand name of the law school has a national reach.

It's just a horrible, horrible time to be attending low-tier Chicago law schools.

I'm backing northside on this one, I don't think you're giving Chicago a fair assessment.

Its easy to get caught up in the pessimism that festers on these boards, especially when you spend a lot of time on them. It also seems like the vast majority of users here have fallen into a game of one-up-manship to see who can offer the grimmest outlook for the future. Its not always as dark as it seems ($10 on someone saying its even "darker"). The reality is that Loyola, DePaul and Kent grads, hell even John Marshall grads, are among the top 10 schools that Chicago partners come from. Like its been stated on these boards a thousand times, "Oh the market has taken a turn for worse, its not the same ANYMORE." No. I don't buy it. Hiring patterns are like rocks and boulders..they takes a long, long time to change. Firms hire LOCAL (Ref: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/cypress ... t1111/#/16). They know the universities in the area, they trust them, they have alumni from them. Granted, there may not be as much hiring going on right now, but its still going to follow the same patterns.

I'll take the heat on this one, but I think the Chicago TT law schools are a decent option if you can keep your costs down.

As a 2L who has done OCI targeting Chicago.......... good luck if you're coming from anywhere but UChicago and Northwestern. And it's hard enough for those schools, too.. (as in.. I know multiple people above median who only got a couple CBs in Chicago)

Honestly? I wouldn't go to law school in Chicago unless 1 of 3 things happen: (1) I get into UChicago. (2) I get into Northwestern. (3) I get a FREE RIDE at a lower school (but not John Marshall as that is an entire waste of 3 years).

[cool]

I call flame. No one would apply to John Marshall and Chicago in the same cycle.

[Beeg12]

My brother graduated from Kent and had a job lined up before his 3L year. I have heard feedback this week from a partner in a firm in Chicago who says that Kent is an extremely viable option for finding employment in Chicago. To say that you wont find a job and that you should not go to law school is shortsighted and completely absurd. Obviously biglaw is competitive and if you go to Kent or Depaul or Loyola you will have to be law review and top of class.

The advice I got from practicing partners in Chicago firms is to choose the place that fits you the best. Work hard, get law review, AND NETWORK. if your job doesn't come from OCI then it will no doubt come from a relationship you have made with professors or law professionals in the area.

One further note on the negative and positive posts... Wild speculation breeds insecurity and false information. Go to law school, work hard, and things will work out. Remember, you're getting a JD not a marketing BA you'll get a job whether at Kent, Loyola, or DePaul.

[wiscohopeful]

I didn't read the previous posts so sorry if I missed something like what you do for a career, etc.

Order in which you should enroll:

Chicago - won't get into...don't worry about that one
Loyola - places best of depaul/loyola/kent in biglaw; biggest (best) transfer chances to school like NW
Kent - nothing comes to mind
Depaul - good if you want to work at the state's attorney office!
John Marshall - full ride with stipend or don't go. It's ridiculously hard to get a job out of there and you better make sure you're top 5% to make it worth your while

I go to school in Chicago and this is my two cents. The debt just doesn't seem worth it unless you go to Loyola and make sure you bust your ass. Hope the economy recovers and get that high paying job so you can pay off the debt. John Marshall if youre an adventurous spirit. Though they do flunk out a sizable portion of every 1L class...

[Helmholtz]

you'll get a job whether at Kent, Loyola, or DePaul.

Completely not true. See --LinkRemoved-- (A current student at Kent saying that, knowing what he knows now, "the employment numbers that [he] was presented with by Kent upon applying to law schools 3 years ago must have been either inaccurate or heavily misrepresented" and that he suspects the claims in the class-action lawsuit against Kent to be true "to an extent"); http://abovethelaw.com/2011/01/inside-s ... -in-chief/ (a story about the Editor-in-Chief of the Kent Law Review being unemployed for at least seven months after graduation).

Will a lot of people from Kent "find employment"? Maybe. But how many of those jobs pay virtually nothing and offer miserable career opportunities?

Frankly, a school offering the career options that Kent does and still charging almost $42,000/year in tuition is disgusting.

[STLMizzou]

Kent actually isn't as bad as this forum tends to think. There are two recent (past 3-4 years) Kent grads working at the firm I am clerking at. It is a mid-sized defense litigation boutique, so they are making good money and decent hours but they don't get paid near big-law pay, but they still enjoy their jobs and get paid well with little debt to pay off.


I would personally not go to any of those schools besides from Chicago, and only applied to NU out of the Chicago schools but that is just me personally. If you have your heart set on Chicago, just know outside of NU/Chicago you are going to have an uphill battle with a ton of networking/ phenomenal grades.

[mrloblaw]

Just like to say I work at a fairly well respected civil rights office in Chicago and only one of our lawyers is from UChicago. The rest are DePaul and Kent. Granted, they were all editors on law reviews while there.

And let us not forget that Kent's part time program is ranked #11. Their legal writing, #10. I don't think that's something to immediately turn down with money attached. But hey, looking at my user name you can guess I didn't study in Hyde Park so 90% of TLS agrees: I might as well leave, or go kill myself haha

(1) How many of those lawyers graduated in the past few years? Times have changed drastically. Have you seen any statistics on how much legal hiring has frozen up in Chicago?

And let's say you work in a fairly well-respected civil-rights office in Chicago. Frankly, you're looking at the winners of DePaul and Kent Law School. What do you think happens to the losers? Editors-in-chief of the law reviews at low-tier Chicago schools have reported difficulty in finding legal employment over the past few years. If 5 percent of the class at DePaul ends up with awesome jobs, it's too easy to point toward those 5 percent and say, "Look! They went to DePaul and they're fine!" while completely ignoring the 95 percent. Hell, a fair portion of those 95 percent probably don't even have legal jobs of any sort, so they're especially invisible.

(2) The "specialty rankings" from USNWR are hilarious bullshit. Look into how those rankings are actually determined and it won't be difficult to see that. Nobody takes them seriously. If you were in a group of law students and mention that Chicago Kent has one of the top ten legal-writing programs, be prepared to get laughed at.

Honestly, people from UChicago Law have difficulty getting decent jobs in the city of Chicago. But at least with UChicago, you can branch out because the brand name of the law school has a national reach.

It's just a horrible, horrible time to be attending low-tier Chicago law schools.

I'm backing northside on this one, I don't think you're giving Chicago a fair assessment.

Its easy to get caught up in the pessimism that festers on these boards, especially when you spend a lot of time on them. It also seems like the vast majority of users here have fallen into a game of one-up-manship to see who can offer the grimmest outlook for the future. Its not always as dark as it seems ($10 on someone saying its even "darker"). The reality is that Loyola, DePaul and Kent grads, hell even John Marshall grads, are among the top 10 schools that Chicago partners come from. Like its been stated on these boards a thousand times, "Oh the market has taken a turn for worse, its not the same ANYMORE." No. I don't buy it. Hiring patterns are like rocks and boulders..they takes a long, long time to change. Firms hire LOCAL (Ref: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/cypress ... t1111/#/16). They know the universities in the area, they trust them, they have alumni from them. Granted, there may not be as much hiring going on right now, but its still going to follow the same patterns.

I'll take the heat on this one, but I think the Chicago TT law schools are a decent option if you can keep your costs down.

Please, 0Ls with no knowledge of the current legal climate, stop misleading, intentionally or otherwise, other 0Ls into making potentially life-destroying mistakes.

That is all.

[Beeg12]

I am not basing my statements on employment statistics, rather current opinions of hiring law firm partners in the market. Aren't these unemployment statistics similar in other law programs and other legal markets? The nation lost 1800 legal jobs in December and they all aren't from the Chicago market. My whole point is that if law is the career in which you plan to pursue, and your options were those listed by the post, to take the best options, which from what I've heard from partners in law firms in Chicago is Kent, and work hard. the fact is that there are attorneys that graduated Kent that have jobs, and there are unemployed graduates in every field of study in every city in America. I just dislike the negative outlook and bad advice you give in regards to "don't go to law school". Obviously if NU and Chicago law were options we wouldn't be having this discussion. The topic is what is the best option to take. If you are going to law school for only money, then don't go. If you want a legal education and are prepared to work for your career, than take the best option you are given and work your butt off. It is naive to think that in the current market that a career will just be handed to you in any field.