What is the best secondary legal market right now? Forum

[Grizz]

... Atlanta were the only markets that did not report deferrals for class of 2011 summer associates.

If you can somehow snag one of the 120 odd spots in the whole city, it's cool.

[romothesavior]

Thanks. This is what I'm worried about because my entire background screams NY/NJ, but the NY market is so oversaturated it's ridiculous.

No, NYC isn't "oversaturated," and second, NYC isn't a market! It is where legal business goes to die. If NYC is actually oversaturated, you see secondary markets dying off (Chicago, LA, SF/SV, Texas). For awhile it was. Now? Hell it's a buyer's market, they're being selective.

My entire background screams Chicago, and to be forthright, I don't particularly consider that a "secondary" legal market. I'm not worried. These forum shoppers can all fuck off in whatever fashion they prefer.

edit: wanted to swear with proper grammar?

I literally have no idea what you just said. Neither your first little paragraph or your second little paragraph make any sense to me. Need mucho clarification.

[20130312]

Thanks. This is what I'm worried about because my entire background screams NY/NJ, but the NY market is so oversaturated it's ridiculous.

No, NYC isn't "oversaturated," and second, NYC isn't a market! It is where legal business goes to die. If NYC is actually oversaturated, you see secondary markets dying off (Chicago, LA, SF/SV, Texas). For awhile it was. Now? Hell it's a buyer's market, they're being selective.

My entire background screams Chicago, and to be forthright, I don't particularly consider that a "secondary" legal market. I'm not worried. These forum shoppers can all fuck off in whatever fashion they prefer.

edit: wanted to swear with proper grammar?

You seem mad...

Regardless, you mean the firms are being selective with applicants, not vice versa, right?

[ahduth]

Thanks. This is what I'm worried about because my entire background screams NY/NJ, but the NY market is so oversaturated it's ridiculous.

No, NYC isn't "oversaturated," and second, NYC isn't a market! It is where legal business goes to die. If NYC is actually oversaturated, you see secondary markets dying off (Chicago, LA, SF/SV, Texas). For awhile it was. Now? Hell it's a buyer's market, they're being selective.

My entire background screams Chicago, and to be forthright, I don't particularly consider that a "secondary" legal market. I'm not worried. These forum shoppers can all fuck off in whatever fashion they prefer.

edit: wanted to swear with proper grammar?

You seem mad...

Regardless, you mean the firms are being selective with applicants, not vice versa, right?

Yeah, I should refrain from posting at certain times. But, no, I meant applicants. You bid on firms at OCI/EIW/whatever your school calls it, and you interview with those firms. Chicago isn't really a secondary market, because all the Chicago firms have their largest offices in NYC. The problem for me is the 7th Circuit is based there, and some of these firms are very good (Sidley, K&E, Jones, Mayer, whatever).

So I guess I am mad, yeah.

[03121202698008]

Thanks. This is what I'm worried about because my entire background screams NY/NJ, but the NY market is so oversaturated it's ridiculous.

No, NYC isn't "oversaturated," and second, NYC isn't a market! It is where legal business goes to die. If NYC is actually oversaturated, you see secondary markets dying off (Chicago, LA, SF/SV, Texas). For awhile it was. Now? Hell it's a buyer's market, they're being selective.

My entire background screams Chicago, and to be forthright, I don't particularly consider that a "secondary" legal market. I'm not worried. These forum shoppers can all fuck off in whatever fashion they prefer.

edit: wanted to swear with proper grammar?

Does anyone consider Chicago a secondary market? NYC is definitely a market...are you high? Also, it's definitely over saturated.

[romothesavior]

Yeah, I should refrain from posting at certain times. But, no, I meant applicants. You bid on firms at OCI/EIW/whatever your school calls it, and you interview with those firms. Chicago isn't really a secondary market, because all the Chicago firms have their largest offices in NYC. The problem for me is the 7th Circuit is based there, and some of these firms are very good (Sidley, K&E, Jones, Mayer, whatever).

So I guess I am mad, yeah.

Still no idea what you are trying to say here. Why are you mad? What do you categorize Chicago as, a primary market? Why does it matter if they have other offices in New York? (some of the ones you just named are HQ'd in Chicago) How is NYC not oversaturated? (hint: every market is) And if NYC is oversaturated, how would that kill off secondary markets? Why is NYC not a market? How is it where legal business goes to die?

My head is spinning.

[20130312]

NYC market = CLS, Cornell, NYU, every other T14 to some extent, Fordham, 'Dozo, and a bunch of junk regionals

Maybe CLS, Cornell, and NYU get their pick of jobs, but the rest are a tough sell.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

If his point was NYC is not oversatured relative to most other markets, I agree. The people I know who wanted NY did well at OCI this year at UT. DC and Chicago, on the other hand, were bloodbaths for most. For UT, I think NY was actually probably easier for someone with the grades than Houston/Dallas were, but that is just speculation on my part.

The rest of that post I really don't get though.

[03121202698008]

NYC market = CLS, Cornell, NYU, every other T14 to some extent, Fordham, 'Dozo, and a bunch of junk regionals

Maybe CLS, Cornell, and NYU get their pick of jobs, but the rest are SOL.

That's a vast over exaggeration. I know many people who had their pick of NYC. Regardless, it's not a secondary market and irrelevant ITT.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

NYC market = CLS, Cornell, NYU, every other T14 to some extent, Fordham, 'Dozo, and a bunch of junk regionals

Maybe CLS, Cornell, and NYU get their pick of jobs, but the rest are SOL.

Sorry, but this is just wrong. NYC is the biggest legal market BY FAR. It has huge SA classes compared to most other markets. Yes, there are more law students than biglaw jobs available, but that holds true everywhere. A ton of schools funnel grads to NYC.

[20130312]

Maybe I just have too many fail friends.

[Strange]

I have a related question, what constitutes "ties"? For example I've lived in a certain place for almost 2 years, is that good enough for ties? Or do you have to grow up there, have family there?

[20130312]

I have a related question, what constitutes "ties"? For example I've lived in a certain place for almost 2 years, is that good enough for ties? Or do you have to grow up there, have family there?

It's a subjective question. The more you can pile on that will suggest you're in it for the long haul, the better.

Getting married should do the trick.

[03121202698008]

I have a related question, what constitutes "ties"? For example I've lived in a certain place for almost 2 years, is that good enough for ties? Or do you have to grow up there, have family there?

Depends on the market if that's good enough. It's kind of weak. Better would be my wife is from here, I grew up here, I lived/worked here for 5+ years and have a large group of friends here. The idea is that you're unlikely to quit the firm in order to transfer to another city.

For DC...I did fine with I'm from 2 hours from here and I was in the military for 10 years and don't really have a hometown anymore. Also, I have dozens of friends here that have gotten out of the military. Once I got CBs, I decline all of those in NYC and then honestly told the firms "I'm only interested in DC, all of my callbacks are here" which seemed to end the questioning.

[ahduth]

Yeah, I should refrain from posting at certain times. But, no, I meant applicants. You bid on firms at OCI/EIW/whatever your school calls it, and you interview with those firms. Chicago isn't really a secondary market, because all the Chicago firms have their largest offices in NYC. The problem for me is the 7th Circuit is based there, and some of these firms are very good (Sidley, K&E, Jones, Mayer, whatever).

So I guess I am mad, yeah.

Still no idea what you are trying to say here. Why are you mad? What do you categorize Chicago as, a primary market? Why does it matter if they have other offices in New York? (some of the ones you just named are HQ'd in Chicago) How is NYC not oversaturated? (hint: every market is) And if NYC is oversaturated, how would that kill off secondary markets? Why is NYC not a market? How is it where legal business goes to die?

My head is spinning.

Well, hell, I'm mad because I'm trying to do outlines.

But I'll go for the last question first. NYC is a market in every sense of the word. People buy and sell legal business there. Outside of ad law and appellate work, that's the first stop. If work dries up here, everyone else goes home.

NYC actually is oversaturated in the sense that too many people are seeking jobs here. But... they're not going to get them, so who cares (other than people who don't have real options here). This and DC are the primary legal markets. Calling places like Chicago, SF/SV, Texas, not secondary is maybe my bad, but you still have top flight candidates competing with IU-B graduates, for example. NYC isn't a market because if it ceases to be a market, you no longer have a legal profession.

[concurrent fork]

Chicago isn't really a secondary market, because all the Chicago firms have their largest offices in NYC.

lol wut

[bdubs]

.

[charliep]

do firms have the same fear of "ties" if you're from a place no one would want to return to?

[bceagles182]

RE: Boston being "hard." I honestly think that the hiring dynamics are just very different here. As a previous poster said, I would guess that 50% of all SA positions go to BU & BC, and that might even be on the low side. My summer class, e.g., is ~ 60% BC/BU.

It depends on the firm (largely because the prestige of the firm dictates where in a given class they can pull from)

Ropes/WH/Goodwin are in their own category.

Everywhere else, my oversimplified general impression is H/Y > top 1/3 BC/BU > top 1/3 out of market T14s. Personally, I don't think it's that "hard" to get a job in Boston out of bc/bu as long if you have solid grades. But if you go to, say, GULC, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing your interviewers that you really want to be here despite having chosen GULC over BC/BU w/$$, even if you grew up here.

[Grizz]

do firms have the same fear of "ties" if you're from a place no one would want to return to?

They tend to be even more fearful for that reason.

[American_in_China]

In terms of Nashville, would owning a house there be sufficient for a tie?

If you want Nashville, either go to Vanderbilt, or be from Nashville/Tennessee and go to a higher ranked school than Vanderbilt. Just from my info that seems to be about the only way in.

[3ThrowAway99]

Not ATL. Highly desirable, and only 100ish 2L SAs in the whole city. And they want ties.

Not Miami, for the same season, but only about 50 2L SAs in the whole city. And strong ties.

Not Nashville. Far fewer than 50 2L SAs, and they want strong ties.

vandy guy right??

[rayiner]

Chicago isn't really a secondary market, because all the Chicago firms have their largest offices in NYC.

This is not even close to true. The top Chicago firms (Kirkland, Sidley, Mayer, Winston, Jenner) all have their biggest office in Chicago, by a large margin.

And if Chicago is a secondary legal market, then the only primary legal market is NYC.

[3ThrowAway99]

Yeah, I should refrain from posting at certain times. But, no, I meant applicants. You bid on firms at OCI/EIW/whatever your school calls it, and you interview with those firms. Chicago isn't really a secondary market, because all the Chicago firms have their largest offices in NYC. The problem for me is the 7th Circuit is based there, and some of these firms are very good (Sidley, K&E, Jones, Mayer, whatever).

So I guess I am mad, yeah.

Still no idea what you are trying to say here. Why are you mad? What do you categorize Chicago as, a primary market? Why does it matter if they have other offices in New York? (some of the ones you just named are HQ'd in Chicago) How is NYC not oversaturated? (hint: every market is) And if NYC is oversaturated, how would that kill off secondary markets? Why is NYC not a market? How is it where legal business goes to die?

My head is spinning.

get this fucking guy a beer

[Opie]

do firms have the same fear of "ties" if you're from a place no one would want to return to?

They tend to be even more fearful for that reason.

Maybe it's just too early, but I'm not clear on what is being said by either party here.