What is the best secondary legal market right now? Forum

[RVP11]

Highest pay relative to cost of living? Somewhere in Texas. Best place to live? Somewhere sunny.

Delaware.

As far as I'm aware, the only firms paying $160k in Delaware are (1) Skadden and (2) boutiques. Also, Wilmington is higher COL than Dallas or Houston. HTH.

[RVP11]

Boston has a surprisingly small number of bigfirm slots

How is 250 small? Looks pretty strong relative to Chicago.

Its probably more like 200 than the 200-250 range I gave (tried to account for firms I forgot about). How many are in Chicago? The Chicago bigfirm legal market is almost double the size (Chicago 7200 v. Boston 3400 http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2491269007).

In terms of number of bigfirm lawyers, Boston is only 300 more than Atlanta so its still tiny. Weird.

Right, so Chicago has twice as many big firm lawyers as Boston. But I doubt they have twice as many SA positions (I think I saw a ~300 number thrown around). Therefore, I don't see how Boston's number of SA slots is "surprisingly small."

[03121202698008]

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[PurplePirate]

I doubt this. You could also live more South towards Dover. (I own a brand new house in Dover...so not speaking out my ass here.) I made $60K in DE and lived comfortably.

This. Also, when I lived in DE there was no sales tax (unless that's changed since then).

[Blindmelon]

Boston has a surprisingly small number of bigfirm slots

How is 250 small? Looks pretty strong relative to Chicago.

Its probably more like 200 than the 200-250 range I gave (tried to account for firms I forgot about). How many are in Chicago? The Chicago bigfirm legal market is almost double the size (Chicago 7200 v. Boston 3400 http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2491269007).

In terms of number of bigfirm lawyers, Boston is only 300 more than Atlanta so its still tiny. Weird.

Right, so Chicago has twice as many big firm lawyers as Boston. But I doubt they have twice as many SA positions (I think I saw a ~300 number thrown around). Therefore, I don't see how Boston's number of SA slots is "surprisingly small."

I know 0 about the Chicago legal market. Thats rough.

[beach_terror]

I doubt this. You could also live more South towards Dover. (I own a brand new house in Dover...so not speaking out my ass here.) I made $60K in DE and lived comfortably.

This. Also, when I lived in DE there was no sales tax (unless that's changed since then).

AFAIK, not many people actually live in Wilmington. DE is so small you can live pretty much anywhere for dirt cheap, make at least 145, live near awesome places (NYC, Philly, shore) and not pay sales tax.

[ahduth]

Can I get a read on Milwaukee?

You guys haven't been to Milwaukee. I can tell. People from Wisconsin are nice. You're not.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having an entire festival centered around cheese.

[thexfactor]

LOL. Boston is extremely hard to break into...even from top 1/3 at T14. You're not thinking secondary enough. Think Baltimore, Charlotte, Denver, Wilmington (DE), Detroit, Toledo, etc.

Boston is that hard?

how can boston be that hard? BU and BC seem to dramatically outplace other schools in their range?

[03121202698008]

LOL. Boston is extremely hard to break into...even from top 1/3 at T14. You're not thinking secondary enough. Think Baltimore, Charlotte, Denver, Wilmington (DE), Detroit, Toledo, etc.

Boston is that hard?

how can boston be that hard? BU and BC seem to dramatically outplace other schools in their range?

Because they are strong regional schools, located there, with strong ties to firms in the area. Most of the students have strong ties to the area which is apparently what the firms value.

[BruceWayne]

Because they are strong regional schools, located there, with strong ties to firms in the area. Most of the students have strong ties to the area which is apparently what the firms value.

The other thing people need to realize is that a lot of secondary markets prefer hiring a top of the class person from a local school rather than an "average" or "below average" student from a top school. The exception to this would be HYS and top schools that are located in a secondary region (so Southern firms may feel differently about a UVA/Duke student, midwestern ones about a Michigan/NU/Chicago student. But a lot of Boston firms would probably prefer a top 10 percent law review BU/BC grad than a 3.2 one from Columbia, NYU,UVA, or Penn etc.

[minnbills]

Because they are strong regional schools, located there, with strong ties to firms in the area. Most of the students have strong ties to the area which is apparently what the firms value.

So if I went to BU/BC from the midwest I would have a hard time even with biglaw firms?

[20130312]

LOL. Boston is extremely hard to break into...even from top 1/3 at T14. You're not thinking secondary enough. Think Baltimore, Charlotte, Denver, Wilmington (DE), Detroit, Toledo, etc.

Boston is that hard?

how can boston be that hard? BU and BC seem to dramatically outplace other schools in their range?

Because they are strong regional schools, located there, with strong ties to firms in the area. Most of the students have strong ties to the area which is apparently what the firms value.

What about those with Northeast ties, but not necessarily Boston (actually, not at all Boston)

[Grizz]

In terms of Nashville, would owning a house there be sufficient for a tie?

This ain't how legal hiring works. Does your school have name brand recognition in Nashville? How are your grades? Do you have an articulable reason for wanting to begin your career in Nashville? Ties isn't just a box you check.

[romothesavior]

It is apparently pretty insular, but Dallas is probably the healthiest secondary market in the country.

[romothesavior]

LOL. Boston is extremely hard to break into...even from top 1/3 at T14. You're not thinking secondary enough. Think Baltimore, Charlotte, Denver, Wilmington (DE), Detroit, Toledo, etc.

Boston is that hard?

how can boston be that hard? BU and BC seem to dramatically outplace other schools in their range?

A city can be hard to break into even if the local schools do relatively well. BU/BC are very strong in Boston, but also do respectably in NYC and DC.

Also, Boston is very, very hard without ties.

[professork]

How's orange county, legal health wise? contracting growing?

[romothesavior]

Any news on St. Louis?

It is just very, very small. Biggest firm class size is Bryan Cave and they've been something like a dozen in recent years? (not totally sure) The other top firms in town (Husch, Lewis Rice, Thompson Coburn, Armstrong Teasdale, Greensfelder, SNR Denton, Polsinelli) have class sizes ranging between like 2-8. I would be surprised if there are more than 40 or 50 NLJ 250 SA spots in the entire city. There are a few other firms that are respectable in prestige and pay near 6 figures that usually host summer programs (Carmody MacDonald, Sandberg Phoenix, maybe Pitzer Snodgrass but I dunno what they pay), but they have like 2-3 people tops usually.

[TwelveBeeSicks]

What are we measuring "best" by? Number of available SA spots? Buying power of starting salaries? Quality of work? Now that I think about it, I don't even think this question can be answered objectively, so I guess it all depends on what an individual person was looking for.

[Blindmelon]

What about those with Northeast ties, but not necessarily Boston (actually, not at all Boston)

If you can articulate a solid reason why you want to be in Boston and have something (UG, family lives here, wife/husband, etc.), plus going to BC/BU, then you will be fine locally. Anything NYC on the resume kills though - I know people who cleaned up in NYC but struck out in Boston. Many said they were grilled extensively on why they didn't want to go back to NYC. A good number of people do come to BU/BC with no ties and still do well locally - it depends on the interviewers and the firm. Those with serious local ties tend to outperform their grades locally though.

[romothesavior]

What are we measuring "best" by? Number of available SA spots? Buying power of starting salaries? Quality of work? Now that I think about it, I don't even think this question can be answered objectively, so I guess it all depends on what an individual person was looking for.

I interpreted best as a mixture of: Health + Size + Salaries

And health and size are two different things (see: Chicago). Based on the three metrics I just listed, I think Dallas wins hands down.

[beachbum]

Any news on St. Louis?

It is just very, very small. Biggest firm class size is Bryan Cave and they've been something like a dozen in recent years? (not totally sure) The other top firms in town (Husch, Lewis Rice, Thompson Coburn, Armstrong Teasdale, Greensfelder, SNR Denton, Polsinelli) have class sizes ranging between like 2-8. I would be surprised if there are more than 40 or 50 NLJ 250 SA spots in the entire city. There are a few other firms that are respectable in prestige and pay near 6 figures that usually host summer programs (Carmody MacDonald, Sandberg Phoenix, maybe Pitzer Snodgrass but I dunno what they pay), but they have like 2-3 people tops usually.

Yeah, that's about what I figured. It's rough out there, but hopefully the lack of SA spots is somewhat offset by the relative lack of applicants shooting for those spots.

[de5igual]

What are we measuring "best" by? Number of available SA spots? Buying power of starting salaries? Quality of work? Now that I think about it, I don't even think this question can be answered objectively, so I guess it all depends on what an individual person was looking for.

I interpreted best as a mixture of: Health + Size + Salaries

And health and size are two different things (see: Chicago). Based on the three metrics I just listed, I think Dallas wins hands down.

SA class sizes in Dallas are very small relative to Houston. The tradeoff, though, would be that you're in Houston.

[20130312]

What about those with Northeast ties, but not necessarily Boston (actually, not at all Boston)

If you can articulate a solid reason why you want to be in Boston and have something (UG, family lives here, wife/husband, etc.), plus going to BC/BU, then you will be fine locally. Anything NYC on the resume kills though - I know people who cleaned up in NYC but struck out in Boston. Many said they were grilled extensively on why they didn't want to go back to NYC. A good number of people do come to BU/BC with no ties and still do well locally - it depends on the interviewers and the firm. Those with serious local ties tend to outperform their grades locally though.

Thanks. This is what I'm worried about because my entire background screams NY/NJ, but the NY market is so oversaturated it's ridiculous.

[nouseforaname123]

What are we measuring "best" by? Number of available SA spots? Buying power of starting salaries? Quality of work? Now that I think about it, I don't even think this question can be answered objectively, so I guess it all depends on what an individual person was looking for.

I interpreted best as a mixture of: Health + Size + Salaries

And health and size are two different things (see: Chicago). Based on the three metrics I just listed, I think Dallas wins hands down.

I am partial to Dallas, but Houston is right there with Dallas (I know you didn't mention Houston).

http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Perspectives_Fall_2010.pdf


On the front end of the recruiting process I think Houston wins (more callbacks, higher percentage of callbacks turning into offers, and more offers extended). See page 15 of the NALP report.

I think Dallas wins on the back end of the recruiting process with a higher offer rate for summer associates (although this is for class of 2011). See page 11 of the report.

I know there are way too many variables to reach any strong conclusions from this data.

The thing that jumps out the most is that Dallas, Houston and Atlanta were the only markets that did not report deferrals for class of 2011 summer associates.

[ahduth]

Thanks. This is what I'm worried about because my entire background screams NY/NJ, but the NY market is so oversaturated it's ridiculous.

No, NYC isn't "oversaturated," and second, NYC isn't a market! It is where legal business goes to die. If NYC is actually oversaturated, you see secondary markets dying off (Chicago, LA, SF/SV, Texas). For awhile it was. Now? Hell it's a buyer's market, they're being selective.

My entire background screams Chicago, and to be forthright, I don't particularly consider that a "secondary" legal market. I'm not worried. These forum shoppers can all fuck off in whatever fashion they prefer.

edit: wanted to swear with proper grammar?