Top Law Schools

GW is not a t-20. There is a big secret nobody is talking about- GW sends most of its grads into the federal government. Even Fordham, heck, even American, Univ of Maryland, etc..., all place better than GW in terms of private practice. You know what else nobody is talking about? These government jobs are NOT paid. There is no budget for them. So yes, if your dream is to work at the FDIC, come here and it will come true, just remember, they will make you bust your ass for free, and when you graduate, they'll just ditch you and get the next unsuspecting 1L/2L to work for them.

Also, the school is so ridiculously deficient in classes that matter. There are barely any healthcare law classes. It's IP program, called one of the nation's strongest, consists of a few classes and a journal that you can get on just by applying to it (they accept like 80 people, I wish I was exaggerating, most of whom have below 3.2 GPAs). There are a ton of corporate etc... classes, but they have barely any classes dealing with labor and employment. In other words, this is a school whose classes are geared towards preparing you for big law, but they don't actually place well in big law at all, so you're fucked.

Btw, it has like 1,000,000,000 international law classes. Why, lol? Seriously, fucking why??

Final rant is- its expensive. There's just no reason for it. If you get into GW, you can get a scholarship at American. I promise you, you will have the SAME EXACT JOB PROSPECTS AS AMERICAN, UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE, MARYLAND, TAKE YOUR PICK. The difference? A scholarship. Go to American, have them pay half your tuition, and when you graduate you will be able to take a 40-60k per year job with the knowledge that you won't have to live in a shitty little studio in the ghetto because all your money is going to student loans.

*end rant*

P.S. Top 20% at my school. Beyond the top 10%, there is a huge number of unemployed people with excellent grades, work experience, etc...--people who got fucked by a really, really bad school. It's so bad that the CDO will literally tell people not to expect anything. My last CDO meeting she literally said, "that's a great GPA," then told me I should keep working for free until someone finally pities me enough to pay me $1 for my services.

Based on your experiences, do you believe people are going into fed jobs because they can't get private practice, or because they self-select to go into gov, thus giving GW crappy private practice numbers?

thank you for your perspective. I hear there are a lot of IP people going to GW, including a lot of PT people who are currently working at the USPTO. Competing with them PLUS trying to place into the already crowded DC market with GW levels of debt sounds scary, if what I've heard is true.

paul34 wrote:Based on your experiences, do you believe people are going into fed jobs because they can't get private practice, or because they self-select to go into gov, thus giving GW crappy private practice numbers?

I was thinking the same thing...also, nice avatar, paul34

paul34 wrote:Based on your experiences, do you believe people are going into fed jobs because they can't get private practice, or because they self-select to go into gov, thus giving GW crappy private practice numbers?

thank you for your perspective. I hear there are a lot of IP people going to GW, including a lot of PT people who are currently working at the USPTO. Competing with them PLUS trying to place into the already crowded DC market with GW levels of debt sounds scary, if what I've heard is true.

i'm guessing not a lot of people are self-selecting to go into non-paid work instead of going into private practice.

GermX wrote:GW is not a t-20. There is a big secret nobody is talking about- GW sends most of its grads into the federal government. Even Fordham, heck, even American, Univ of Maryland, etc..., all place better than GW in terms of private practice. You know what else nobody is talking about? These government jobs are NOT paid. There is no budget for them. So yes, if your dream is to work at the FDIC, come here and it will come true, just remember, they will make you bust your ass for free, and when you graduate, they'll just ditch you and get the next unsuspecting 1L/2L to work for them.

Also, the school is so ridiculously deficient in classes that matter. There are barely any healthcare law classes. It's IP program, called one of the nation's strongest, consists of a few classes and a journal that you can get on just by applying to it (they accept like 80 people, I wish I was exaggerating, most of whom have below 3.2 GPAs). There are a ton of corporate etc... classes, but they have barely any classes dealing with labor and employment. In other words, this is a school whose classes are geared towards preparing you for big law, but they don't actually place well in big law at all, so you're fucked.

Btw, it has like 1,000,000,000 international law classes. Why, lol? Seriously, fucking why??

Final rant is- its expensive. There's just no reason for it. If you get into GW, you can get a scholarship at American. I promise you, you will have the SAME EXACT JOB PROSPECTS AS AMERICAN, UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE, MARYLAND, TAKE YOUR PICK. The difference? A scholarship. Go to American, have them pay half your tuition, and when you graduate you will be able to take a 40-60k per year job with the knowledge that you won't have to live in a shitty little studio in the ghetto because all your money is going to student loans.

*end rant*

P.S. Top 20% at my school. Beyond the top 10%, there is a huge number of unemployed people with excellent grades, work experience, etc...--people who got fucked by a really, really bad school. It's so bad that the CDO will literally tell people not to expect anything. My last CDO meeting she literally said, "that's a great GPA," then told me I should keep working for free until someone finally pities me enough to pay me $1 for my services.

There's 17 IP classes next semester (not counting skills stuff like drafting), I took healthcare law and it was awesome, and the IP Journal only takes like 30 people.

Everything else, however, is pretty credited.

GermX wrote:You know what else nobody is talking about? These government jobs are NOT paid. There is no budget for them. So yes, if your dream is to work at the FDIC, come here and it will come true, just remember, they will make you bust your ass for free, and when you graduate, they'll just ditch you and get the next unsuspecting 1L/2L to work for them.

Can you elaborate on this? You mean if you intern for Fed agencies they won't hire you for full time work? How would a 1L/2L do the work of an atty? Are these internships full time during the school year?

In general, law school is a crapshoot for obtaining a job.

GermX's "rant" is correct in that it confirms that grades are not everything and will not guarantee you post-school employment (i.e., GermX knows people above top 10% without jobs). Conversely, grades are not everything (did you see that lil trick), and there are people "only" in the top 1/3 at GW, not on Law Review who have jobs. I am one of these non-elite, not-top-10% - who will be employed.

I can't comment on any dissapointment in lack of classes (e.g., lack of healthcare law, lack of IP classes) since my future employment is classic corporate work. The classes for me are awesome and practical: antitrust, tender offers, mutual funds.

I am not saying GermX is wrong - just that the original post should not dissuade you. On the same note, don't let anybody else encourage you to go to law school. Make law school your own decision, so that the outcome, whether good or bad, is only on you.

monkey85 wrote:In general, law school is a crapshoot for obtaining a job.

GermX's "rant" is correct in that it confirms that grades are not everything and will not guarantee you post-school employment (i.e., GermX knows people above top 10% without jobs). Conversely, grades are not everything (did you see that lil trick), and there are people "only" in the top 1/3 at GW, not on Law Review who have jobs. I am one of these non-elite, not-top-10% - who will be employed.

I can't comment on any dissapointment in lack of classes (e.g., lack of healthcare law, lack of IP classes) since my future employment is classic corporate work. The classes for me are awesome and practical: antitrust, tender offers, mutual funds.

I am not saying GermX is wrong - just that the original post should not dissuade you. On the same note, don't let anybody else encourage you to go to law school. Make law school your own decision, so that the outcome, whether good or bad, is only on you.

+1 to this. TLS is an anecdote echo-chamber. Individual mileage may vary. To be sure, however, don't go to law school, especially any school outside of HYS, expecting elite placement (e.g. biglaw, prestigious fed. govn't, etc.). Unfortunately, there's no section of the LSAT that tests a prospective student's aptitude for tempering his or her own expectations.

I am not saying GermX is wrong - just that the original post should not dissuade you. On the same note, don't let anybody else encourage you to go to law school. Make law school your own decision, so that the outcome, whether good or bad, is only on you.

I guess my question is, is GermX's rant the typical "THERE ARE NO JOBS" rant (credited no matter where you go, but irrelevant if one is determined to go to school anyway), or is this a legit rant about how GW's ranking is overinflated (in which case, one should specifically beware of GW)? It seems that GermX is arguing the latter. I'm only applying to six or seven schools and GW is one of them. I'll admit that I had written off American without even giving it a chance because I knew I didn't want to apply to anything ranked below #25, save for one school. But if GW's prospects really are equal to that of American's, then I need to rethink my list entirely. Maybe I should add American (among other schools in the 40-50 range) to it. Or I should react conversely and just drop GW.

glitter178 wrote:

paul34 wrote:Based on your experiences, do you believe people are going into fed jobs because they can't get private practice, or because they self-select to go into gov, thus giving GW crappy private practice numbers?

thank you for your perspective. I hear there are a lot of IP people going to GW, including a lot of PT people who are currently working at the USPTO. Competing with them PLUS trying to place into the already crowded DC market with GW levels of debt sounds scary, if what I've heard is true.

i'm guessing not a lot of people are self-selecting to go into non-paid work instead of going into private practice.

I don't know, if someone is self-selecting for government they may go into the non-paid government work at first, thinking it will lead to something later...then by the time they realize it's a dead-end it's too late for them to try to work their way back to private practice. That's just a hypothesis though.

GermX wrote: *end rant*

if i may, 3 suggestions:

1) u gotta stay positive bro. i know its rough b/c ive been in ur exact shoes and have plenty of 3L friends who are even worse off. but u gotta keep ur head up and stay in the game. its like shooting a basketball - if u think u'r gonna miss, u'll miss for sure.

2) please dont take this the wrong way - but u gotta be PROACTIVE, and right now u'r being reactive. u'r blaming people and things outside of urself or ur control. once u take full responsibility for ALL ur actions and results, good or bad, then u'll be able to work on influencing ur future in a positive way instead of just feeling like a pawn.

3) and lastly - have u spoken to jenice at the CDO? she really helped me out by telling me HOW to network (vs. "oh just network" without explaining how). give her a try; i think she's the best counselor.

good luck bud.

cynthia rose wrote:But if GW's prospects really are equal to that of American's . . . .

def not, dooder. see generally my poast, supra.

GW provides way more employer exposure than a school like American. But, as has been intimated ITE, exposure does not correlate to ability to land a jerb. Like any school outside HYS, etc., you've got to have good grades. Grades, however, don't necessarily correlate to jerbs either, to a degree (sorry germx...). Moreover, you've got to nail interviews when you have them. It's easy for someone to poast on TLS about how they got 304930483 interviews and landed no jerb, then to attack their administration and blame it on the TTT-ness of their school (unless, of course, you go to a TTT...but then, as they say, it's your own goddamn fault). Interviews, however, are NOT an exact science, and any one of 309430948 things could have led to a rejection, CB, offer, etc. For example: your preferred region, your preferred practice area, whether your preferred region contains a practice area for that firm, whether that practice area in that preferred region for that particular firm is hiring (and if so, to what extent they're hiring), your ability to write well (this is VERY important), your ability to carry a conversation, your ability to tastefully and tactfully interject humor into a conversation, your level of interest in the firm, your WE, your grades, whether you're on a journal/MC, how you dress (seriously), your UG background, your ties to a region, whether you're perceived as a flight risk, whether you and your interviewer just "hit it off," your current school, whether that firm traditionally hires from that school, how many students that firm traditionally hires from that school, AND THE LIST GOES ON AD INFINITUM.

Look, as a general principle, if you want to go to LS, then be ready to accept the reality that you'll end up jerb-less. Why do people have such a difficult time accepting that? Some people take a monumentally stupid risk in going. For some, it pays off. For some, it doesn't. Some knew what they were getting themselves into. Some, unfortunately, did not know what they were getting themselves into. Morons constitute the latter group. Free will - whatever. /rant

tl;dr - GW > American, unless you've got a full-ride to the latter and nada to the former. In fact, I wouldn't recommend GW to anyone unless they were interested in IP. If that's the case, you've got to be just short of woefully unemployable not to land a biglaw gig (unless, of course, your grades are SPS).

Finally, GL germX. Most of my rant here is directed at prospectives. Dood has some good points...if you're top 20%, CRUSH this year and try to land a clerkship. Then, when you start in your biglaw gig as a 2nd year associate with a FAT clerkship bonus, you can style on your fellow classmates when it comes time to lateral because your resume will be sweeter.

I'm only a 1L so I can't speak on the job search, but nothing about this school had made me feel comfortable with my decision.

I'm only speaking from a tiny bit of experience, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to go here either if they can get in somewhere else with scholarship money. If you think you're too good for AU/MD/Catholic, retake the LSAT and find a way into Georgetown.

GW is not worth it and it's definitely the definition of a diploma mill. The class size is absurdly large for the prestige (or lack thereof) in its market and it's astonishing how bad some of the professors are.

Btw, it has like 1,000,000,000 international law classes. Why, lol? Seriously, fucking why??

I can answer this for you. Its purely to attract full-freight paying LLMs and make them feel better about attending your school. Have you noticed an increasingly large body of LLMs at your school? Has to do with the difficulty in finding non-LLMs who can pay full freight I think.

law4vus wrote:definition of a diploma mill.

eh, so is GULC

I'd like to chime in and say pretty much any school in this ranking area, around T-20 to T-50 is just a diploma mills. GW, Emory, WUSTL, all the same boat.

To be sure, however, don't go to law school, especially any school outside of HYS, expecting elite placement (e.g. biglaw, prestigious fed. govn't, etc.).

So you're saying that less than 1,000 (150 Y, 500 H, 200 S) new lawyers a year should expect to get "prestigious" jobs, and only those that get into HYS at that? If you're talking Vault 100, then perhaps you have a point. But you also mentioned government jobs, etc. Like landing an NLJ250 is beyond what median grads from CCNMVP can achieve, let alone those that finish in the top quintile at Duke, NU, GULC, etc. Troll.

The gist of your post--don't set your sights on an elite job unless you attend HYS--is ridiculous.

I learn so much on this site: T14 schools are now diploma mills, apparently.

How was GW law brother?

Big Shrimpin wrote:

law4vus wrote:definition of a diploma mill.

eh, so is GULC

Yeah. At least GULC is the best in its market though. I'm definitely regretting the decision and am not sure I'll stick it out. But we'll see how grades and such go.

GW has the unfortunate problem of being a regional school in one of, if not the, most competitive legal market to break into. You compete not only with T14ers, but DC firms aren't very insular and nab top of the class at T30s.

As for clerkships that were mentioned before, thats going to be an uphill battle. Unless you can pull yourself up to top 10% (more like 5%) and are on law review, its going to be messy. If you have ties to a state like W. VA. or Neb. or something, it'll be a little easier - but that won't be an easy jump into a bigfirm.

In all, sucky sitation. Sorry man :/.

dood wrote:have u spoken to jenice

+1, I ditched my normal section advisor a long time ago and switched to Jenice Goffe. She is actually helpful.

anewaphorist wrote:

To be sure, however, don't go to law school, especially any school outside of HYS, expecting elite placement (e.g. biglaw, prestigious fed. govn't, etc.).

So you're saying that less than 1,000 (150 Y, 500 H, 200 S) new lawyers a year should expect to get "prestigious" jobs, and only those that get into HYS at that? If you're talking Vault 100, then perhaps you have a point. But you also mentioned government jobs, etc. Like landing an NLJ250 is beyond what median grads from CCNMVP can achieve, let alone those that finish in the top quintile at Duke, NU, GULC, etc. Troll.

The gist of your post--don't set your sights on an elite job unless you attend HYS--is ridiculous.

Ultimately, landing gainful employment is a complicated calculus (see one of my earlier poasts). My distinction re HYS is admittedly arbitrary, so you've got a point there. It's impossible to generalize, but I think there's a strong argument to be made that, the higher-ranked the school, the more you should be able to "expect" that kind of a jerb. Again, the HYS distinction is arbitrary, but the gist of my poasts ITT (which you've incorrectly summarized) recommend tempering one's expectations before settling on a LS. Hence, the arbitrary (whatever cutoff you wanna use) distinction re those sorts of jobs.

Of course it's a complicated calculus, but that doesn't mean that you should expect midlaw or doc review if you're not at HYS. For instance, NYC firms hire most of their new associates from Columbia and then NYU, Chicago from UChicago (and, to a lesser extent, Northwestern), and D.C, as we're discussing, is a bit of a mixed bag. Within those markets, other schools place well (i.e., Duke in NYC, UVA in D.C.). Tempering your expectations is a necessity at every school, even at HYS. Just ask the bottom 5% of those classes. Your posts have stressed the arbitrary nature of the distinctions you've made, but then you combine (a) certain schools are golden tickets with (b) the hiring process is complicated. Non-sequitur much?

You can retrospectively water-down your previous posts in light of my objections, but the fact remains that you come across as trying to scare people away from law school if they can't land a T5. And I don't think that's helpful, especially given the panoply of posters OTS doing just that.

One of these things is not like the other.

Heaven, you know hyperbole can be an effective way to communicate a point, right? I'm playing off the false dichotomy shrimpin made: that a non-"prestigous" job does not justify going to law school and equates to a bad decision. The set of these "non-prestigious" jobs (lower-tier teaching, midlaw, in-house, and, the bottom of the chain, doc review) was implied to have equal weight in deterring a person from attending LS, and, by the same token, prestigious gov't work and biglaw were revered as the sole worthwhile jobs.

anewaphorist wrote:Of course it's a complicated calculus, but that doesn't mean that you should expect midlaw or doc review if you're not at HYS.

One of these things is not like the other.

=/ never knew it was so bad. Top 20% and no offer?

anewaphorist wrote: en, you know hyperbole can be an effective way to communicate a point, right? I'm playing off the false dichotomy shrimpin made: that a non-"prestigous" job does not justify going to law school and equates to a bad decision.

Right, which is why mentioning small law or shitlaw would have made more sense. That's all I'm saying.