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Let's talk about legal markets. I'm looking at Loyola/Kent/DePaul in Chicago, Temple/Rutgers-Camden in Philadelphia, and Rutgers-Newark in Newark. I was born and raised in the Chicagoland area, still reside here. Few legal connections in the region. Obviously, the best choice is to choose the one where I will accumulate the least amount of debt. Its looking like one of the two Rutgers schools at the moment.

However, even $50k-$75k in debt can be disastrous if I can't find work in the local market. So what's your take on the debt-to-job prospects for each of these schools in their markets? How do Philadelphia/South Jersey and Newark/North Jersey view outsiders? Will my job hunt be adversely affected if I move to one of those areas? Which area is stronger right now?

retake

IAFG wrote:retake

Thank you for bringing this up.

No. Case closed.

Continue.

mrtoren wrote:No. Case closed.

You've already taken 3 times?

bk187 wrote:

mrtoren wrote:No. Case closed.

You've already taken 3 times?

I scored over what I was PTing, I have a history of dropping lower after retaking standardized tests and I don't want to risk where I'm at right now. I'm content with this level, I don't feel over my head like I would at a T30/T14. If we can't move past this sticking point, then the moderators can lock the thread.

not sure of which market is best for finding jobs at the moment but i vote for the temple/RU-camden group. they both seem to place well in the philly market and have a good rep

mrtoren wrote:

bk187 wrote:

mrtoren wrote:No. Case closed.

You've already taken 3 times?

I scored over what I was PTing, I have a history of dropping lower after retaking standardized tests and I don't want to risk where I'm at right now. I'm content with this level, I don't feel over my head like I would at a T30/T14. If we can't move past this sticking point, then the moderators can lock the thread.

If you would feel over your head at a T30, just wait to see how trying to get a job in the Chicago legal market feels from DePaul.

I came expecting to say how much better the city of Chicago is compared to the other two areas. Left depressed.

I would pick the school that offers the most free lunches. Also consider proximity to a liquor store. You're not going to want to walk that far during your post-2LOCI-no-offer haze.

Possibly the most attractive student body, so you might score with lawcest and get something out of the experience (the answer is herpes).

mrtoren wrote:I scored over what I was PTing, I have a history of dropping lower after retaking standardized tests and I don't want to risk where I'm at right now. I'm content with this level, I don't feel over my head like I would at a T30/T14. If we can't move past this sticking point, then the moderators can lock the thread.

1. You have nothing to lose. If you score lower it isn't going to matter but a higher score could change things.

2. You tell others to retake but won't swallow the advice yourself?

3. Okay I'm dropping it.

To get it back on track: I think I'd err towards both Rutgers being better choices than any Chicago TT/TTT. The question then hinges on the one in OP: whether this holds true for outsiders as it would for NJ natives. Even if you couldn't find a definitive answer for this, I'd probably risk it since even OOS at Rutgers is probably far less than a Chicago TT/TTT.

..

Substantive answer to the OP: Go with Newark.

Nelson wrote:Philadelphia is a big city but not a big legal market. I'm from Philly and would love to stick around, but there are not a lot of jobs on the corporate side here. I've heard the number tossed around that the associate class for biglaw for the whole city was 20-30 per year in good times. Good luck with anything government as there are state and local hiring freezes into perpetuity.

Yeah, Philly is not huge, not small. Smaller legal market than Atlanta, slightly bigger than Dallas.

Nelson wrote:Philadelphia is a big city but not a big legal market. I'm from Philly and would love to stick around, but there are not a lot of jobs on the corporate side here. I've heard the number tossed around that the associate class for biglaw for the whole city was 20-30 per year in good times.

I'm not sure who was tossing these numbers around, but it wasn't someone who knows what they are talking about. In "good times" MLB alone had around 30 summer associates per year. Right now, there are probably about 140-150 "biglaw" openings each year in Philly for new associates.

Wholigan wrote:Right now, there are probably about 140-150 "biglaw" openings each year in Philly for new associates.

If that is true, then I'm pretty sure it's new. I and many of my classmates couldn't buy a callback from Philly firms at OCI in 2009, much less an offer. I don't think there's any way they had anywhere close 140-150 slots on offer back then. Not saying that 20-30 in the whole city isn't low, but 140-150 does sound awful high.

Wholigan wrote:

Nelson wrote:Philadelphia is a big city but not a big legal market. I'm from Philly and would love to stick around, but there are not a lot of jobs on the corporate side here. I've heard the number tossed around that the associate class for biglaw for the whole city was 20-30 per year in good times.

I'm not sure who was tossing these numbers around, but it wasn't someone who knows what they are talking about. In "good times" MLB alone had around 30 summer associates per year. Right now, there are probably about 140-150 "biglaw" openings each year in Philly for new associates.

that is definitely a generous estimate. though there are definitely more than 20-30. just looking at the biggest firms..Dechert was looking for around 18 this year, MLB wanted 10-12, Duane Morris same, Pepper hamilton wanted around 18, cozen o'connor around 15, etc. Those five firms alone get you to around 75 positions. there are many other firms that pay philly market that hire around 5-8 SAs, as well. my guess is there are in excess of 100 biglaw spots available, but not much beyond that number.

EDIT: to actually answer OP's question...it depends on a variety of factors. if you don't want to be in philly long-term, you probably shouldn't come to this area for law school. a degree from temple or rutgers-camden won't get you very far outside the mid-atlantic region. try to think long-term, if possible.

johnnyutah wrote:

Wholigan wrote:Right now, there are probably about 140-150 "biglaw" openings each year in Philly for new associates.

If that is true, then I'm pretty sure it's new. I and many of my classmates couldn't buy a callback from Philly firms at OCI in 2009, much less an offer. I don't think there's any way they had anywhere close 140-150 slots on offer back then. Not saying that 20-30 in the whole city isn't low, but 140-150 does sound awful high.

I'm pretty sure that's close to the number. I did a heavy amount of research on all the firms before and during OCI this year. You are looking at 70-75 just between MLB, Dechert, Ballard, Cozen, and Pepper.

Then throw in 7-10 each for Blank Rome, Drinker, Duane and Reed Smith, 5-6 each for Fox, Saul Ewing, Schnader and Stradley, and 2-3 each for dla piper, Dilworth, White & Williams, Marshall Dennehey, Woodcock Washburn and Volpe Koenig.

From NALP, the summer associates who were working in Philly this year:

ballard spahr llp-11
blank rome llp-5
BUCHANAN INGERSOLL & ROONEY PC-0
COZEN O'CONNOR-15
Dechert LLP-14
dla piper LLP - 0
DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH LLP-13
duane morris llp-7
fox rothschild llp-3
Hangley Aronchick Segal & Pudlin-0
Jackson Lewis LLP-0
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P. -0
Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP-13
Pepper Hamilton LLP -21
REED Smith LLP - PHILADELPHIA-0
Saul Ewing LLP-11
Schnader Harrison Segal & Lewis LLP-4
STRADLEY RONON STEVENS & YOUNG, LLP-7
white and williams llp-2
Woodcock Washburn LLP-4

TOTAL 119

Chicago was around 325.

If someone else wants to add up the total number of Chicago/Philly area law students, that might be relevant too.

Rough guide schools placing in the philly/chicago market

Philly:
Upenn 1/2 ( most upenn grads go other places)
Temple 1
Villanova 1
Rutgers 3/4 ( in NJ)
penn state 1/4 ( far away)
Drexel 1
= 4.5 law schools

Chicago
UChicago 1
NW 1
UIUC 1
ND 1
Michigan .5
Wisconsin .25
Iowa .25
Chicago kent 1
Depaul 1
WUSTL .5
Minn .25
Indiana .25
= 8 law schools

I thinkt he biggest difference is that chicago has 3 T14 schools that essentially feed to its market while Philly only has 1. Then t30s chicago has uiuc/nd/WUSTL right behind the t14s while Philly doesn't have that.
Philly goes straight from t14 to t2 schools. Therefore, it gives t2 people more of a shot.

thexfactor wrote:Rough guide schools placing in the philly/chicago market

Philly:
Upenn 1/2 ( most upenn grads go other places)
Temple 1
Villanova 1
Rutgers 3/4 ( in NJ)
penn state 1/4 ( far away)
Drexel 1
= 4.5 law schools

Chicago
UChicago 1
NW 1
UIUC 1
ND 1
Michigan .5
Wisconsin .25
Iowa .25
Chicago kent 1
Depaul 1
WUSTL .5
Minn .25
Indiana .25
= 8 law schools

I thinkt he biggest difference is that chicago has 3 T14 schools that essentially feed to its market while Philly only has 1. Then t30s chicago has uiuc/nd/WUSTL right behind the t14s while Philly doesn't have that.
Philly goes straight from t14 to t2 schools. Therefore, it gives t2 people more of a shot.

throw widener into the philly one as well

i realized that i forgot john marshall in chicago and widner for philly.

Regardless, these are t4 schools who don't really place into nlj250 firms in either market. The same can hold true for drexel.

thexfactor wrote:Rough guide schools placing in the philly/chicago market

Philly:
Upenn 1/2 ( most upenn grads go other places)
Temple 1
Villanova 1
Rutgers 3/4 ( in NJ)
penn state 1/4 ( far away)
Drexel 1
= 4.5 law schools

Chicago
UChicago 1
NW 1
UIUC 1
ND 1
Michigan .5
Wisconsin .25
Iowa .25
Chicago kent 1
Depaul 1
WUSTL .5
Minn .25
Indiana .25
= 8 law schools

I thinkt he biggest difference is that chicago has 3 T14 schools that essentially feed to its market while Philly only has 1. Then t30s chicago has uiuc/nd/WUSTL right behind the t14s while Philly doesn't have that.
Philly goes straight from t14 to t2 schools. Therefore, it gives t2 people more of a shot.

Thanks for the breakdown. How does this correspond to the size of the respective legal markets? Obviously, Philadelphia is going to be smaller. So is it just as competitive for the schools in the area as it would be for those in Chicago? Would a DePaul grad looking in Chicago have the same level of difficulty as an RU-C grad in Philly? It looks like Philadelphia has less than half the SA positions that Chicago does and more than half the number of law schools.

I'm not looking for BigLaw. However, I'm split between government and MidLaw.

mrtoren wrote:
Thanks for the breakdown. How does this correspond to the size of the respective legal markets? Obviously, Philadelphia is going to be smaller. So is it just as competitive for the schools in the area as it would be for those in Chicago? Would a DePaul grad looking in Chicago have the same level of difficulty as an RU-C grad in Phllly?

I'm not looking for BigLaw. However, I'm split between government and MidLaw.

Mhmm. How many lawyers do you think gov't and midlaw hire every year, and how many students attending the sorts of schools you are considering apply for those jobs?

TCR is never New Jersey

I'd say retake, don't go, or Philadelphia

I'm split between government and MidLaw.

Oh yah, I'll just waltz up to the nearest Midlaw firm with my TT degree and SURE they'll take me. The midlaw firms I applied to had between 100-300 applicants for each SA slot.

Maybe you could grab a small firm in Newark if you turned in a solid performance and scrambled.

Long story short. Lol. Retake.

Borhas wrote:TCR is never New Jersey

I'd say retake, don't go, or Philadelphia

this. Temple or Rutgers-C, dude