Top Law Schools

If there were any threads on this here I missed them. How long before someone -- a recent graduate who is unemployed, perhaps -- sues Villanova for fraud?

http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-12/b ... sat-scores

There was a thread discussing it but it has been a while.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=146682

Lol @ "Villanova Law censured by ABA over admissions-data fraud, but retains accreditation."

I think there should be consequences, but screwing all the students by denying accreditation seems to hurt the victims too much. If the law school were sued for fraud, it would give all law schools proper notice that they can't afford to be misleading about this stuff.

Thanks for the thread link.

Comes across as a bit ridiculous that they go after Villanova for lying about admissions statistics, but basically give schools carte blanche on the far more important placement statistics.

voice of reason wrote:I think there should be consequences, but screwing all the students by denying accreditation seems to hurt the victims too much. If the law school were sued for fraud, it would give all law schools proper notice that they can't afford to be misleading about this stuff.

Thanks for the thread link.

Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

voice of reason wrote:I think there should be consequences, but screwing all the students by denying accreditation seems to hurt the victims too much. If the law school were sued for fraud, it would give all law schools proper notice that they can't afford to be misleading about this stuff.

Thanks for the thread link.

I agree. I should have qualified in that I was LOLing at the censure since I thought it was simply a verbal warning. After actually reading the rest of the article, I saw "The ABA required that the law school post a copy of the censure on its website and said copies would be distributed to the deans of other accredited law schools."

Tiago Splitter wrote:Comes across as a bit ridiculous that they go after Villanova for lying about admissions statistics, but basically give schools carte blanche on the far more important placement statistics.

This. Freaking this.

JusticeHarlan wrote:

voice of reason wrote:I think there should be consequences, but screwing all the students by denying accreditation seems to hurt the victims too much. If the law school were sued for fraud, it would give all law schools proper notice that they can't afford to be misleading about this stuff.

Thanks for the thread link.

Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

I don't think so. They lied about admissions. They didn't lie about employment stats (they probably did avoid telling the truth like every other school though)

I see we're beating the Villanova horse again...

HeavenWood wrote:I see we're beating the Villanova horse again...

How else can we be sure it's dead?

JusticeHarlan wrote:Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

Sure, I think so. The LSAT median is a material component of how the school's quality is measured. Students base their JD purchasing decision on the school's quality, and the LSAT median directly influences how the school's quality is assessed. Moreover, VU knowingly made a false statement with the intent that students would act on the false information by applying to or enrolling in the JD program. Students did rely on that information.

The hard/interesting part is establishing damages.

voice of reason wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

Sure, I think so. The LSAT median is a material component of how the school's quality is measured. Students base their JD purchasing decision on the school's quality, and the LSAT median directly influences how the school's quality is assessed. Moreover, VU knowingly made a false statement with the intent that students would act on the false information by applying to or enrolling in the JD program. Students did rely on that information.

The hard/interesting part is establishing damages.

Especially since the scandal will likely have little (if any) effect on local hiring.

voice of reason wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

Sure, I think so. The LSAT median is a material component of how the school's quality is measured. Students base their JD purchasing decision on the school's quality, and the LSAT median directly influences how the school's quality is assessed. Moreover, VU knowingly made a false statement with the intent that students would act on the false information by applying to or enrolling in the JD program. Students did rely on that information.

The hard/interesting part is establishing damages.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "damn, I would have applied there, but their median are too low for me. Too bad, because their employment stats looked good." But if you do know people who make their decisions on medians, and they went to VU for that reason, sure, I guess you could have a fraud case. I've just never met anyone like that. Nor do I really understand it.

JusticeHarlan wrote:

voice of reason wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

Sure, I think so. The LSAT median is a material component of how the school's quality is measured. Students base their JD purchasing decision on the school's quality, and the LSAT median directly influences how the school's quality is assessed. Moreover, VU knowingly made a false statement with the intent that students would act on the false information by applying to or enrolling in the JD program. Students did rely on that information.

The hard/interesting part is establishing damages.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "damn, I would have applied there, but their median are too low for me. Too bad, because their employment stats looked good." But if you do know people who make their decisions on medians, and they went to VU for that reason, sure, I guess you could have a fraud case. I've just never met anyone like that. Nor do I really understand it.

well I would think the fraud would be on the monetary side.. i dont know the exact numbers but if you went to nova with a 162 lsat at sticker thinking you just made it because you were at median but their median was really 159 youd be reasonably pissed.. and the info showing who got what scholarships should be able to back that up id think assuming that info isnt also fudged

SnakesOnAReggieWayne wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:

voice of reason wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

Sure, I think so. The LSAT median is a material component of how the school's quality is measured. Students base their JD purchasing decision on the school's quality, and the LSAT median directly influences how the school's quality is assessed. Moreover, VU knowingly made a false statement with the intent that students would act on the false information by applying to or enrolling in the JD program. Students did rely on that information.

The hard/interesting part is establishing damages.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "damn, I would have applied there, but their median are too low for me. Too bad, because their employment stats looked good." But if you do know people who make their decisions on medians, and they went to VU for that reason, sure, I guess you could have a fraud case. I've just never met anyone like that. Nor do I really understand it.

well I would think the fraud would be on the monetary side.. i dont know the exact numbers but if you went to nova with a 162 lsat at sticker thinking you just made it because you were at median but their median was really 159 youd be reasonably pissed.. and the info showing who got what scholarships should be able to back that up id think assuming that info isnt also fudged

Basically. The value of a law degree from a particular school to a particular student is based off of the GPA/LSAT medians of the school as compared to the GPA/LSAT of the student.

SnakesOnAReggieWayne wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:

voice of reason wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

Sure, I think so. The LSAT median is a material component of how the school's quality is measured. Students base their JD purchasing decision on the school's quality, and the LSAT median directly influences how the school's quality is assessed. Moreover, VU knowingly made a false statement with the intent that students would act on the false information by applying to or enrolling in the JD program. Students did rely on that information.

The hard/interesting part is establishing damages.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "damn, I would have applied there, but their median are too low for me. Too bad, because their employment stats looked good." But if you do know people who make their decisions on medians, and they went to VU for that reason, sure, I guess you could have a fraud case. I've just never met anyone like that. Nor do I really understand it.

well I would think the fraud would be on the monetary side.. i dont know the exact numbers but if you went to nova with a 162 lsat at sticker thinking you just made it because you were at median but their median was really 159 youd be reasonably pissed.. and the info showing who got what scholarships should be able to back that up id think assuming that info isnt also fudged

Of course, law schools can theoretically make everyone pay sticker if they so choose, so I don't know how solid of a defense this is.

SnakesOnAReggieWayne wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:

voice of reason wrote:

JusticeHarlan wrote:Is LSAT median something that's going to be considered material for a fraud claim?

Sure, I think so. The LSAT median is a material component of how the school's quality is measured. Students base their JD purchasing decision on the school's quality, and the LSAT median directly influences how the school's quality is assessed. Moreover, VU knowingly made a false statement with the intent that students would act on the false information by applying to or enrolling in the JD program. Students did rely on that information.

The hard/interesting part is establishing damages.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "damn, I would have applied there, but their median are too low for me. Too bad, because their employment stats looked good." But if you do know people who make their decisions on medians, and they went to VU for that reason, sure, I guess you could have a fraud case. I've just never met anyone like that. Nor do I really understand it.

well I would think the fraud would be on the monetary side.. i dont know the exact numbers but if you went to nova with a 162 lsat at sticker thinking you just made it because you were at median but their median was really 159 youd be reasonably pissed.. and the info showing who got what scholarships should be able to back that up id think assuming that info isnt also fudged

Scholarships are discretionary, so no.