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Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:16 pm**

I'm applying this fall to law school. I have the numbers to get into UVA ED with probably no money or a acceptance to UNC chapel hill with a small scholarship.

I like the prestige of UVA and the job prospects but I want to live and work in NC after I graduate. Whats the better choice?

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:20 pm**

shane0515 wrote:I'm applying this fall to law school. I have the numbers to get into UVA ED with probably no money or a acceptance to UNC chapel hill with a small scholarship.

I like the prestige of UVA and the job prospects but I want to live and work in NC after I graduate. Whats the better choice?

UVA.

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:23 pm**

If you definitely want NC go to Wake for free

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:27 pm**

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:28 pm**

I would say UVA at sticker, depending on your goals, is either better than or fairly comparable to a full ride at UNC. If you're expecting anything much less than a full ride, go to UVA.

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:45 pm**

Bulls wrote:If you definitely want NC go to Wake for free

lolwut

UVA. With ties, you can get anywhere in NC with countless other promising options if your tentative preferences change.

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:36 pm**

So how much does clank rank affect job prospects? I can honestly say that I know people who have gone to UVA and they tell me how hard it is. I can't promise that I will have a great class rank upon graduation. Would that affect job prospects at all?

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:41 pm**

How is this even a question? UVa.

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:45 pm**

shane0515 wrote:So how much does clank rank affect job prospects? I can honestly say that I know people who have gone to UVA and they tell me how hard it is. I can't promise that I will have a great class rank upon graduation. Would that affect job prospects at all?

This has been discussed countless times on this forum. Although there is a lot of debate, the general consensus is that it doesn't really matter which school you go to, it's impossible to predict your rank, and you won't necessarily do better at a lower ranked school. Don't go to a school where you wouldn't be content being at median.

Your class rank will affect your prospects at both schools, but don't assume what your rank will be at either school.

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:45 pm**

plenipotentiary wrote:How is this even a question? UVa.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:23 am**

shane0515 wrote:I'm applying this fall to law school. I have the numbers to get into UVA ED with probably no money or a acceptance to UNC chapel hill with a small scholarship.

I like the prestige of UVA and the job prospects but I want to live and work in NC after I graduate. Whats the better choice?

I disagree with mostly everyone here; I think the best option here is UNC.
Firstly, considering that you "want to live and work in NC after you graduate," I think UNC would give you solid employments options in NC despite their lower ranking because of their alumni network. But to be fair, UVA would also give plenty of jobs opportunities in NC.
Secondly, and this is to me the most important reason, you should consider the cost v. benefit. My best guess is that if you go UNC or UVA, you will probably end up with the same job after graduation if do decide to live and work in NC. Thus, since the benefit would be same, we should consider the cost. UVA will probably cost you a lot; NC not so much because you will qualify for in-state tuition and on top of that you will probably get some money from the UNC. My guess is that the cost difference between UNC and UVA for you could well exceed 100K.
Of course, the whole analysis relies on the assumption that you will still ""want to live and work in NC after you graduate." If not, then it is obvious that UVA would open many more doors in most other locations. But if you are sure want NC, then consider the extra cost that UVA would carry for the possible benefits you could get from it.

Good luck!

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:38 am**

I go to UVA. If you want to work in NC and you can get even a half tuition scholarship from UNC, or like someone said, a full ride or close to it at Wake Forest, go to one of those two schools over UVA at sticker NO QUESTION. UVA at sticker is a crap ton of money, and frankly, isn't worth it for someone with your goals. As far as the argument about firms going deeper into UVA's class goes, the truth is that in this economy almost no one is going deep into anyone's class--period. There are some exceptions to this for certain markets, but I seriously doubt this holds for North Carolina. UNC is too highly ranked of a school, that is located right in NC, for the firms their to give that much preference to a UVA grad. This isn't a situation like wanting to work in South Carolina or Maryland where there isn't a local school anywhere near UVA in prestige. Further, NC firms will be very serious about ties to NC. They will wonder why someone didn't attend UNC if they were really seriously committed to working in NC. Go to UNC for less debt. And honestly, it probably will be a bit easier at UNC. I'm not saying that people there aren't smart. But the truth is that they will have more people who just applied to law school because they were not sure of what to do, and weren't necessarily academic superstars. You won't be competing with nearly as many of the phi beta kappa Harvard, Princeton, Duke and first in class high school types as you will be at UVA. Bottom line is that will make things a little bit easier.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:12 am**

Thanks for the help. It's a tough decision for me because I've worked really hard these past 3 and a half years. Many people would kill to go to UVA. Its hard not accepting a top 10 law school over 30th. But I guess I have to look at my career goals and take that into deep consideration

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:15 am**

scammedhard wrote:
shane0515 wrote:I'm applying this fall to law school. I have the numbers to get into UVA ED with probably no money or a acceptance to UNC chapel hill with a small scholarship.

I like the prestige of UVA and the job prospects but I want to live and work in NC after I graduate. Whats the better choice?
I disagree with mostly everyone here; I think the best option here is UNC.
Firstly, considering that you "want to live and work in NC after you graduate," I think UNC would give you solid employments options in NC despite their lower ranking because of their alumni network. But to be fair, UVA would also give plenty of jobs opportunities in NC.
Secondly, and this is to me the most important reason, you should consider the cost v. benefit. My best guess is that if you go UNC or UVA, you will probably end up with the same job after graduation if do decide to live and work in NC. Thus, since the benefit would be same, we should consider the cost. UVA will probably cost you a lot; NC not so much because you will qualify for in-state tuition and on top of that you will probably get some money from the UNC. My guess is that the cost difference between UNC and UVA for you could well exceed 100K.
Of course, the whole analysis relies on the assumption that you will still ""want to live and work in NC after you graduate." If not, then it is obvious that UVA would open many more doors in most other locations. But if you are sure want NC, then consider the extra cost that UVA would carry for the possible benefits you could get from it.

Good luck!

The bolded is false. You will most likely get a better job from UVA. But your cost-benefit analysis is still spot on. At UVA, there's a much better chance you'll end up with a 130k year job in Charlotte. At UNC, chances of that job are much lower, and you're more likely to end up with say, a 90kjob at a less reputable firm (this is assuming you break out of shitlaw, which is a real possibility from UNC).

Here are the employment stats at UNC. As you can see, they are not very impressive for school as highly ranked as it is.

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That said, if you would be happy at a 90k job that probably has more reasonable hours, then you might be better off going to UNC and accepting less debt.

Also, the employment stats at wake are not much worse (if not better!) than UNC, so I would seriously consider that.

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Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:32 pm**

So even If I was in the top 10% at UNC, my chances for a good job in NC would be worse than being at the median at UVA?

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:35 pm**

shane0515 wrote:So even If I was in the top 10% at UNC, my chances for a good job in NC would be worse than being at the median at UVA?

No, your chances might be better at top 10% UNC (but only in North Carolina), but the point is you can't say that just because a school is lower-ranked, your odds of getting top 10% shoot up dramatically. So there's no guarantee you'd median at UVA and ace UNC.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:06 pm**

Really you have just about as good a chance as anyone else as being dead last in your class at either school. I'd much rather be dead last at UVA than dead last at UNC. That's scary shit right there.

Think of it this way OP - if you could clone yourself and send one of you to UVA and the other to UNC, there's no way of predicting how the UNC clone would do relative the UVA one. He might be top 10% compared to median; but you might BOTH end up right at median. On the other hand, if the UVA clone "clicks" better with that school in environment and there's less competition at UVA because students feel more secure about their job prospects, then the UVA clone might actually end up more highly ranked.

There's just no way to predict, and you certainly shouldn't assume that you would be a higher class rank at UNC. You may very well regret that decision if you end up below median working in shitlaw (a realistic 50% probability if you go to UNC).

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:34 pm**

Thats a good way of looking at the situation.

Thanks a lot for your help

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:42 pm**

shane0515 wrote:So even If I was in the top 10% at UNC, my chances for a good job in NC would be worse than being at the median at UVA?

They would be much much higher than they would at median at UVA. Frankly you'd have a better shot at jobs in Atlanta, and DC if you were law review, as top 10 percent at UNC than median at UVA. People really don't realize how much grades matter. Honestly, unless you're talking about massive gaps in prestige grades are going to trump school name. I assure you that many many firms will hire a top 10 percent UNC grad over a median UVA one--and I mean many.

duckmoney wrote:Think of it this way OP - if you could clone yourself and send one of you to UVA and the other to UNC, there's no way of predicting how the UNC clone would do relative the UVA one. He might be top 10% compared to median; but you might BOTH end up right at median. On the other hand, if the UVA clone "clicks" better with that school in environment and there's less competition at UVA because students feel more secure about their job prospects, then the UVA clone might actually end up more highly ranked.

UVA is incredibly competitive. In addition you will be competing with loads of phi beta kappa Duke and Harvard types. At UNC it will still be very competitive, but you won't be dealing with as many people with that sort of profile. And more importantly, you will have FAR less debt.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:55 pm**

This is turning into an interesting debate

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:05 pm**

BruceWayne wrote:
shane0515 wrote:So even If I was in the top 10% at UNC, my chances for a good job in NC would be worse than being at the median at UVA?
They would be much much higher than they would at median at UVA. Frankly you'd have a better shot at jobs in Atlanta, and DC if you were law review, as top 10 percent at UNC than median at UVA. People really don't realize how much grades matter. Honestly, unless you're talking about massive gaps in prestige grades are going to trump school name. I assure you that many many firms will hire a top 10 percent UNC grad over a median UVA one--and I mean many.

duckmoney wrote:Think of it this way OP - if you could clone yourself and send one of you to UVA and the other to UNC, there's no way of predicting how the UNC clone would do relative the UVA one. He might be top 10% compared to median; but you might BOTH end up right at median. On the other hand, if the UVA clone "clicks" better with that school in environment and there's less competition at UVA because students feel more secure about their job prospects, then the UVA clone might actually end up more highly ranked.
UVA is incredibly competitive. In addition you will be competing with loads of phi beta kappa Duke and Harvard types. At UNC it will still be very competitive, but you won't be dealing with as many people with that sort of profile. And more importantly, you will have FAR less debt.

The "if" before my bolded implies a hypothetical. Just a scenario. I'm not going to UVA next year (I honestly thought they were pretty douchey when I visited) but I did get the feeling that it wasn't very competitive, at least not compared to one of the notoriously competitive schools (cough GULC cough).

Also, yes, grades matter, but look at it this way.

At UVA in 2009, 58% of the class either had a job that paid 160k+ or an article III clerkship (which are way more competitive than biglaw). That means that at leastdozens of students below median ended up with a biglaw job. Chances are plenty of those students also got market paying jobs in secondary markets.

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At UNC that same year, less than 30% of the class was making 87k or higher (or had a clerkship). The salaries are lower AND the numbers are lower. 30% is a low enough number that it could very well be that almost no one below median got a decent firm gig out of that school. That's a scary thought.

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In other words, people at UVA with worse grades (below median) get better jobs than people with better grades (at or above median) at UNC. If you get top 10% and LR at UNC, you will have much better prospects than being at median at UVA, though no where near as good prospects as top 10% and LR at UVA. On the other hand, if you end up below median at both places (50% chance of that happening, go toss a coin), you will be MUCH better off at UVA.

Based on employment numbers, UNC is vastly overrated by USNWR. Employment numbers should be the number one factor in your choice of which school to attend. I'd take UVA at sticker over anything but a full ride to UNC.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:51 pm**

The lesson from this thread is that UVA is a TTT masquerading as a good school.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:55 pm**

There's another option you might want to consider...

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:58 pm**

OP: Earlier you posted your stats as a 152/3.62 AA male. If still accurate, then Virginia may not be an option. Have you retaken & increased your LSAT score ?

P.S. According to lawschoolnumbers.com, you also will need a higher LSAT score for UNC.

P.P.S. I just noticed that you also posted that you have a 157 LSAT score, but that a friend also uses your TLS account. It might help if you share your highest LSAT score so that others can suggest appropriate options.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:07 pm**

My score increased to a 163

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