Top Law Schools

Cannot decide between Wake Forest and Villanova. Here's the deal:

I visited both schools in April. LOVED Wake Forest. Liked Villanova well enough. Would much rather live in North Carolina post-graduation BUT Nova offered me $25k/year with a 3.15 GPA stip and Wake offered me nothing.

I have worked out every scenario in my head, written out the pros and cons list and still can't decide. Please vote. I am two seconds away from flipping a coin so your opinions are appreciated.

If you can stand living in Philly after graduation, Nova. If not, retake/reapply/get money at Carolina or Wake.

So Wake Forest is not worth sticker?

Certainly no school outside the T14 is worth sticker. I would extend that to T10 at least.

Many state (public) law schools are worth in-state tuition if one intends on remaining in the area to practice.

People voting seem to think Wake is worth it.

Sample size...

Current Wake student here.

If you are going to be in the top 25% of your class and you can get onto either Law Review or Moot Court, then Wake will likely be worth full sticker (and by "worth full sticker" I mean you will have a good chance of securing employment post-graduation that will allow you to pay down your student debt and still live comfortably).

Since Wake hasn't offered you any scholarship money, I'll assume your LSAT and GPA aren't significantly above Wake's medians. Based on that assumption, the odds on a purely mathematically basis that you'll be in the top 25% aren't good.

I don't know you, and I'm not hating on you. But take Villanova's money. You're better off being in ~$60,000 of debt rather than ~$140,000+.

ndirish2010 wrote:Sample size...

lolz. I get your point. This sucks.

you loved wake forest and want to be in north carolina after graduation. IMO your option should be wake forest now or increase your score and apply to wake andUNC next cycle for scholarship purposes. if you dont think you can do better on the LSAT then go to wake forest.

dont got to villanova with the intention of going back to NC. Have you tried to get wake to offer you anything??

I reluctantly voted for Villanova because Wake at sticker is just too much risk/debt. My actual vote is to retake/reapply, and possibly move to NC so that you can have a shot at UNC as an "in-stater." If you want NC, UNC (in-state) is the school where you should go.

I'm flipping a coin.

another wf student here. do not pay sticker. too big of a gamble. take the $ at nova or retake.

So let me throw in another wrench...if I told you I had a guaranteed job after graduation where I would make a six-digit salary (in Las Vegas if all else failed), would you think Wake was a good choice then?

riskybusiness11 wrote:So let me throw in another wrench...if I told you I had a guaranteed job after graduation where I would make a six-digit salary (in Las Vegas if all else failed), would you think Wake was a good choice then?

A six-digit salary from either school would be very hard to get ITE, and most likely the same applies in 2014. So why pay extra money at Wake when you can get the exact same thing from Nova? Go to Nova and take the job in 2014.

does it count for nothing that Wake was my absolute top choice? it's fine if it doesn't, but I need this spelled out for me.

riskybusiness11 wrote:does it count for nothing that Wake was my absolute top choice? it's fine if it doesn't, but I need this spelled out for me.

Assuming all the other costs are similar, by going to Wake over Nova, you'd be throwing away 75K. I don't think that living in Winston-Salem and attending Wake over Nova for 3 years is "worth" that much. Is it to you?

If I thought it wasn't this decision would be a lot easier. Then again, if I was sure it was worth it then the decision would also be made. Obviously I am incapable of making a choice.

riskybusiness11 wrote:If I thought it wasn't this decision would be a lot easier. Then again, if I was sure it was worth it then the decision would also be made. Obviously I am incapable of making a choice.

Obviously it is a personal choice. Perhaps because I am older and have dealt with more money issues (i.e., mortgages, loans, debts, cars payments, down payments, etc) than most TLSers, my perception about money is different. To me, 75K (tax free) seems like a lot of money. It would take several years of savings to accumulate that sum, even with a six-figure salary.

scammedhard wrote:

riskybusiness11 wrote:If I thought it wasn't this decision would be a lot easier. Then again, if I was sure it was worth it then the decision would also be made. Obviously I am incapable of making a choice.

Obviously it is a personal choice. Perhaps because I am older and have dealt with more money issues (i.e., mortgages, loans, debts, cars payments, down payments, etc) than most TLSers, my perception about money is different. To me, 75K (tax free) seems like a lot of money. It would take several years of savings to accumulate that sum, even with a six-figure salary.

Yeah it makes my stomach flip thinking about it, but I also can't imagine giving up Wake. I KNEW it was the right place for me immediately upon visiting. I don't have a good understanding of money (23, no bills, no debt, really careless) so I can't put it in perspective. It's helpful to get some outside opinion.

if you are 23 then would it really be that bad to wait out another year re take in october and see how it goes? If you got in this year- chances are good that you will get in next year- and another year off can allow you to work and save some more moeny?????

Pipster30 wrote:Current Wake student here.

If you are going to be in the top 25% of your class and you can get onto either Law Review or Moot Court, then Wake will likely be worth full sticker (and by "worth full sticker" I mean you will have a good chance of securing employment post-graduation that will allow you to pay down your student debt and still live comfortably).

Since Wake hasn't offered you any scholarship money, I'll assume your LSAT and GPA aren't significantly above Wake's medians. Based on that assumption, the odds on a purely mathematically basis that you'll be in the top 25% aren't good.

I don't know you, and I'm not hating on you. But take Villanova's money. You're better off being in ~$60,000 of debt rather than ~$140,000+.

My lsat is just above median and my gpa is 25th%. And nova with the scholly would still be $120k of loans so let's at least assess this with accurate numbers.

riskybusiness11 wrote:

Pipster30 wrote:Current Wake student here.

If you are going to be in the top 25% of your class and you can get onto either Law Review or Moot Court, then Wake will likely be worth full sticker (and by "worth full sticker" I mean you will have a good chance of securing employment post-graduation that will allow you to pay down your student debt and still live comfortably).

Since Wake hasn't offered you any scholarship money, I'll assume your LSAT and GPA aren't significantly above Wake's medians. Based on that assumption, the odds on a purely mathematically basis that you'll be in the top 25% aren't good.

I don't know you, and I'm not hating on you. But take Villanova's money. You're better off being in ~$60,000 of debt rather than ~$140,000+.

My lsat is just above median and my gpa is 25th%. And nova with the scholly would still be $120k of loans so let's at least assess this with accurate numbers.

Another Wake student here.

Do you realize that your monthly payments on your low cost option of $120k of debt will be about $1400/month when you get out? That means your first $24,000 or so of annual income will go towards nothing but loans. That. Is. A. Lot.

Now, if you go with your high roller option of Wake (estimating what, $180k or so of debt?) you're looking at $2100+ in monthly payments. That's an absurdly high payment amount if you're not going to make substantially more with the degree from Wake. You'd be devoting more than an additional $10,000 of your gross income just to have been in Winston for those three years.

Plus, I'm very suspicious of your claim regarding the guaranteed six digit job at a firm in Vegas. There are kids here whose parents are partners at big firms and they can't even get looked at without excellent grades. Just because you have an uncle who makes it rain at Greenberg Traurig out there doesn't mean anything is guaranteed. You need some serious, serious juice to pull off a guaranteed spot at a top firm regardless of grades. If you've got it, good for you.

NarwhalPunter wrote:

riskybusiness11 wrote:

Pipster30 wrote:Current Wake student here.

If you are going to be in the top 25% of your class and you can get onto either Law Review or Moot Court, then Wake will likely be worth full sticker (and by "worth full sticker" I mean you will have a good chance of securing employment post-graduation that will allow you to pay down your student debt and still live comfortably).

Since Wake hasn't offered you any scholarship money, I'll assume your LSAT and GPA aren't significantly above Wake's medians. Based on that assumption, the odds on a purely mathematically basis that you'll be in the top 25% aren't good.

I don't know you, and I'm not hating on you. But take Villanova's money. You're better off being in ~$60,000 of debt rather than ~$140,000+.

My lsat is just above median and my gpa is 25th%. And nova with the scholly would still be $120k of loans so let's at least assess this with accurate numbers.

Another Wake student here.

Do you realize that your monthly payments on your low cost option of $120k of debt will be about $1400/month when you get out? That means your first $24,000 or so of annual income will go towards nothing but loans. That. Is. A. Lot.

Now, if you go with your high roller option of Wake (estimating what, $180k or so of debt?) you're looking at $2100+ in monthly payments. That's an absurdly high payment amount if you're not going to make substantially more with the degree from Wake. You'd be devoting more than an additional $10,000 of your gross income just to have been in Winston for those three years.

Plus, I'm very suspicious of your claim regarding the guaranteed six digit job at a firm in Vegas. There are kids here whose parents are partners at big firms and they can't even get looked at without excellent grades. Just because you have an uncle who makes it rain at Greenberg Traurig out there doesn't mean anything is guaranteed. You need some serious, serious juice to pull off a guaranteed spot at a top firm regardless of grades. If you've got it, good for you.

I understand your skepticism. It is a pretty sure thing, but of course there are no guarantees in life.

If I eliminate Wake Forest from this equation altogether, are you suggesting Villanova is not worth it either? $25k/year is a pretty large scholarship, and I don't think I can do any better (at least not at a school I want to go to). I am still undecided, but I appreciate all of the input.

Why is this thread still going? TCR is retake/reapply ---> Carolina or Wake with $$$