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I finally picked UT over BC and Vanderbilt. Fordham just called and said I got off their wait list. Could you guys help to give me some advice?

1. Cost is NOT a concern.
2. Most connections and friends live in NYC and Boston area.
3. Goal: biglaw, business/finance related
4. Preferred locations: CA>NYC>TX>Boston. (I don't mind working in TX at all if I get a decent job.)

ALL I care about is whether I can get a well paid biglaw job after law school. Which school gives me better shot?

EDIT: all I care about is my paychek. Firm prestige comes second.

So you want biglaw above all else?

I think I'd say UT, partially because it probably has a slight edge but especially because lower taxes and CoL will make TX biglaw paychecks go farther than NYC biglaw paychecks.

bk187 wrote:So you want biglaw above all else?

I think I'd say UT, partially because it probably has a slight edge but especially because lower taxes and CoL will make TX biglaw paychecks go farther than NYC biglaw paychecks.

+1

And I think Fordham is not a smart choice at sticker if you're looking for biglaw. There are just too many other schools that get better chances at NYC biglaw and they don't go very deep into the Fordham classes for biglaw.

OK working in Dallas or Houston? Definitely UT...

Even if its NLJ placement isn't that high, there are some good paying *actual* midlaw firms in TX that are well within grasp for above median UT students. These firms will likely pay you something equivalent of earning 160k/year in NY.

And, btw, if you do exceptionally well at UT, you should be able to get NY or CA biglaw

Neither do particularly well at BigLaw. Texas sends 26.65% of the class to the NLJ250, Fordham sends 25.68%. I would guess that those placements are mostly with in-state NLJ250 firms, since both have limited national pull. So if you would rather work in NY than TX (as you said), I would suggest going to Fordham.

fish52 wrote:Neither do particularly well at BigLaw. Texas sends 26.65% of the class to the NLJ250, Fordham sends 25.68%. I would guess that those placements are mostly with in-state NLJ250 firms, since both have limited national pull. So if you would rather work in NY than TX (as you said), I would suggest going to Fordham.

Take a broader view of employment prospects.

crit_racer wrote:

fish52 wrote:Neither do particularly well at BigLaw. Texas sends 26.65% of the class to the NLJ250, Fordham sends 25.68%. I would guess that those placements are mostly with in-state NLJ250 firms, since both have limited national pull. So if you would rather work in NY than TX (as you said), I would suggest going to Fordham.

Take a broader view of employment prospects.

He said he wanted to do BigLaw, and he wanted to do it in NY. I gave him the right answer if he is BigLaw or bust.... however I would agree with your answer above, about COL and state income taxes.

True, I guess I am focusing on his "well paid" preference moreso than his "biglaw" preference. I just assume when most ppl talk about biglaw that they are talking about biglaw $$.

fish52 wrote:He said he wanted to do BigLaw, and he wanted to do it in NY. I gave him the right answer if he is BigLaw or bust.... however I would agree with your answer above, about COL and state income taxes.

Since 2010 USNWR data isn't available yet, I'll illustrate it with 2009 data:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150681

NLJ250 says UT 36.6, Fordham 29.4. However, if you look at the detail chart you can see that at least 40% of UT's class made 145,000+. Add in 7% for A3 and you have around half the class being biglaw worthy. Fordham is similar with about 45% making 145,000+ and 3% A3 clerks. Of course things are worse now since the 2009 grads did OCI before the crash, but the point is that while the NLJ250 is useful it isn't the be-all end-all.

The point is that biglaw is a phrase that people take in different ways. Personally I take it as a firm that pays market or close to market rate which the NLJ250 does not perfectly capture.

fish52 wrote:

crit_racer wrote:

fish52 wrote:Neither do particularly well at BigLaw. Texas sends 26.65% of the class to the NLJ250, Fordham sends 25.68%. I would guess that those placements are mostly with in-state NLJ250 firms, since both have limited national pull. So if you would rather work in NY than TX (as you said), I would suggest going to Fordham.

Take a broader view of employment prospects.

He said he wanted to do BigLaw, and he wanted to do it in NY. I gave him the right answer if he is BigLaw or bust.... however I would agree with your answer above, about COL and state income taxes.

Even in terms of just NLJ250 firms, the gap between UT and Fordham is wider since you aren't factoring in clerkships.

do clerkships only take top students?

mz253 wrote:I finally picked UT over BC and Vanderbilt. Fordham just called and said I got off their wait list. Could you guys help to give me some advice?

1. Cost is NOT a concern.
2. Most connections and friends live in NYC and Boston area.
3. Goal: biglaw, business/finance related
4. Preferred locations: CA>NYC>TX>Boston. (I don't mind working in TX at all if I get a decent job.)

ALL I care about is whether I can get a well paid biglaw job after law school. Which school gives me better shot?

EDIT: all I care about is my paychek. Firm prestige comes second.

I'm going to go ahead and say Fordham. It's about as good as it gets for NY Biglaw outside of the T14. And it just makes sense due to the bolded reasons.

mz253 wrote:do clerkships only take top students?

The ones that will actually help you in your career do.

I had the same decision so I cataloged the number partners, associates, and Of counsels for both schools currently at the NLJ250. Fordham won by a 1.5:1 ratio in all areas. Outside of Texas and New York, Fordham won by 4:1. New York only: Fordham landslide victory over Texas.

Due to my over 40 years of age status I took the full-tuition/no stip. to Cardozo and left the 90k and 45k scholarships, Fordham and Texas, respectively. If I were 10 years younger I would have chosen Fordham.

fish52 wrote:

crit_racer wrote:

fish52 wrote:Neither do particularly well at BigLaw. Texas sends 26.65% of the class to the NLJ250, Fordham sends 25.68%. I would guess that those placements are mostly with in-state NLJ250 firms, since both have limited national pull. So if you would rather work in NY than TX (as you said), I would suggest going to Fordham.

Take a broader view of employment prospects.

He said he wanted to do BigLaw, and he wanted to do it in NY. I gave him the right answer if he is BigLaw or bust.... however I would agree with your answer above, about COL and state income taxes.

hm, when OP said working in TX at a decent job was acceptable, i assumed OP meant jobs paying biglaw salary (at or near $160k) in TX were fair game as well. factoring in those, UT (which already had a slight edge imo) gets a MUCH larger edge.

2011Cycle wrote:I had the same decision so I cataloged the number partners, associates, and Of counsels for both schools currently at the NLJ250. Fordham won by a 1.5:1 ratio in all areas. Outside of Texas and New York, Fordham won by 4:1. New York only: Fordham landslide victory over Texas.

Due to my over 40 years of age status I took the full-tuition/no stip. to Cardozo and left the 90k and 45k scholarships, Fordham and Texas, respectively. If I were 10 years younger I would have chosen Fordham.

interesting! but where did most UT grads go? family law practice?

mz253 wrote:

2011Cycle wrote:I had the same decision so I cataloged the number partners, associates, and Of counsels for both schools currently at the NLJ250. Fordham won by a 1.5:1 ratio in all areas. Outside of Texas and New York, Fordham won by 4:1. New York only: Fordham landslide victory over Texas.

Due to my over 40 years of age status I took the full-tuition/no stip. to Cardozo and left the 90k and 45k scholarships, Fordham and Texas, respectively. If I were 10 years younger I would have chosen Fordham.

interesting! but where did most UT grads go? family law practice?

he...didnt mention numbers in TX. lol i imagine most UT grads went to practice law (whether small, family, mid, biglaw, etc.) in TX.

none of those stats 'shock' me except the bolded...not that fordham won per se (a lot of UT grads stay in TX...a LOT -- only reason i voted UT was cuz OP said he'd be happy in TX if it were a decent job, and there are very decently paid [think $160k and close] jobs in TX), but that fordham won by so much. unless...by outside of TX and NY, most of the states were like...NJ lol. then i could see why Fordham might win by so much.

DoubleChecks wrote:

mz253 wrote:

2011Cycle wrote:I had the same decision so I cataloged the number partners, associates, and Of counsels for both schools currently at the NLJ250. Fordham won by a 1.5:1 ratio in all areas. Outside of Texas and New York, Fordham won by 4:1. New York only: Fordham landslide victory over Texas.

Due to my over 40 years of age status I took the full-tuition/no stip. to Cardozo and left the 90k and 45k scholarships, Fordham and Texas, respectively. If I were 10 years younger I would have chosen Fordham.

interesting! but where did most UT grads go? family law practice?

he...didnt mention numbers in TX. lol i imagine most UT grads went to practice law (whether small, family, mid, biglaw, etc.) in TX.

Correct on Texas predominating as employment location for UT Law associates, partners, and Of Counsels. . In fact over 90% of UT grads who are partners are employed in Texas, as are overer 80% of the associates. The database only covered the NLJ250. For example 16% of UT associates at NLJ 250 firms are at Bracewell Giuliani, while 12% of UT grads who are partners are at that the firm as well. Counting for self-selection and entrenchment, Fordham wins if one's goal is NYC for the start of their biglaw career. On the other hand, since the attrition rate by year 3 at a biglaw firm is one-third. Making 160k plus bonus in Texas goes a long way in paying down loans.

aliarrow wrote:

mz253 wrote:I finally picked UT over BC and Vanderbilt. Fordham just called and said I got off their wait list. Could you guys help to give me some advice?

1. Cost is NOT a concern.
2. Most connections and friends live in NYC and Boston area.
3. Goal: biglaw, business/finance related
4. Preferred locations: CA>NYC>TX>Boston. (I don't mind working in TX at all if I get a decent job.)

ALL I care about is whether I can get a well paid biglaw job after law school. Which school gives me better shot?

EDIT: all I care about is my paychek. Firm prestige comes second.

I'm going to go ahead and say Fordham. It's about as good as it gets for NY Biglaw outside of the T14. And it just makes sense due to the bolded reasons.

imo the underlined, bolded part explains why OP should take UT... if all you care about is money (and I'm assuming you want to buy things with that money) you'd be foolish to take Fordham over UT... Do you know what $160K buys in Texas?? The answer is A LOT... that same amount gets you a shoebox in Manhattan

2011Cycle wrote:I had the same decision so I cataloged the number partners, associates, and Of counsels for both schools currently at the NLJ250. Fordham won by a 1.5:1 ratio in all areas. Outside of Texas and New York, Fordham won by 4:1. New York only: Fordham landslide victory over Texas.

Due to my over 40 years of age status I took the full-tuition/no stip. to Cardozo and left the 90k and 45k scholarships, Fordham and Texas, respectively. If I were 10 years younger I would have chosen Fordham.

Historical hiring =/= current hiring. How Fordham and UT grads from 5-10 years ago fared isn't relevant to OP's choice. They graduated into an entirely different legal market. The only thing that matters for current and prospective students are the number grads from the last few classes at NLJ250 firms.

Magnolia wrote:

2011Cycle wrote:I had the same decision so I cataloged the number partners, associates, and Of counsels for both schools currently at the NLJ250. Fordham won by a 1.5:1 ratio in all areas. Outside of Texas and New York, Fordham won by 4:1. New York only: Fordham landslide victory over Texas.

Due to my over 40 years of age status I took the full-tuition/no stip. to Cardozo and left the 90k and 45k scholarships, Fordham and Texas, respectively. If I were 10 years younger I would have chosen Fordham.

Historical hiring =/= current hiring. How Fordham and UT grads from 5-10 years ago fared isn't relevant to OP's choice. They graduated into an entirely different legal market. The only thing that matters for current and prospective students are the number grads from the last few classes at NLJ250 firms.

Understood.

Magnolia wrote:

2011Cycle wrote:I had the same decision so I cataloged the number partners, associates, and Of counsels for both schools currently at the NLJ250. Fordham won by a 1.5:1 ratio in all areas. Outside of Texas and New York, Fordham won by 4:1. New York only: Fordham landslide victory over Texas.

Due to my over 40 years of age status I took the full-tuition/no stip. to Cardozo and left the 90k and 45k scholarships, Fordham and Texas, respectively. If I were 10 years younger I would have chosen Fordham.

Historical hiring =/= current hiring. How Fordham and UT grads from 5-10 years ago fared isn't relevant to OP's choice. They graduated into an entirely different legal market. The only thing that matters for current and prospective students are the number grads from the last few classes at NLJ250 firms.

Fordham will probably always reign supreme in that aspect, history has little to do with it. The reason is they have an enormous class size and continue to put tons of decent grads into the most desired legal market, developing a very tight knit and supportive alumni network. This isn't going to change, and they will continue to have the same representation in Firms. This also has nothing to do with NLJ %s as a % of the school's grads.

aliarrow wrote:Fordham will probably always reign supreme in that aspect, history has little to do with it. The reason is they have an enormous class size and continue to put tons of decent grads into the most desired legal market, developing a very tight knit and supportive alumni network. This isn't going to change, and they will continue to have the same representation in Firms. This also has nothing to do with NLJ %s as a % of the school's grads.

I wasn't giving an opinion on whether the ratios would change. They could very well be exactly the same, which could make it useful info for OP. I was just pointing out that OP (and whoever else reads this thread) should be considering recent hiring trends and not historical ones.

one more thing, if i want to do international business/finance law, NYC must be much better than TX right? I feel most TX firms deal with TX companies?

I heard from a lawyer not long ago that deal size really matters in how much you get paid. I'm assuming that if a transaction is international and it's handled by a biglaw firm, it must be big, if nor enormous?

mz253 wrote:one more thing, if i want to do international business/finance law, NYC must be much better than TX right? I feel most TX firms deal with TX companies?

I heard from a lawyer not long ago that deal size really matters in how much you get paid. I'm assuming that if a transaction is international and it's handled by a biglaw firm, it must be big, if nor enormous?

Um...In the United States, the city of Houston has the second highest number of fortune 500 companies (NYC has the most). So, I believe it is safe to say that TX firms deal with all forms of companies.

OP - if you want to go to Fordham, go to Fordham. But for the purposes of employment, Fordham isn't better than UT.

As to your other statement, your pay is based off of what the firm told you it was going to pay you, and there are plenty of smaller international transactions that are handled by larger firms.